Trying to salvage friendships after a terrible holiday

[ChaosIsMyCardo]

Hi, this is my first post. I am hoping someone can help me unpick a disastrous trip with some friends and our kids that I'm worried may have ruined friendships and I'm not quite sure what to do.

I recently went on a two night trip away in the UK with two school friends and our kids. Each of us has a four yo and one also has a baby.

One of these friends has the same day off as me so we have spent lots of time together over the last four years and our boys have had lots of fun together. They both have quite different personalities (my son is very sensitive and can be shy, whereas hers is more assertive and outgoing) so they've occasionally had their moments, but generally they have a great time together.

The other friend has a 4yo daughter (and baby boy) and we don't see each other as often and we are quite different people, but there is a trust between us that comes from knowing each other since childhood.

So, we had all booked this trip as a nice little get together before the kids start school. I knew it wasn't going to be a relaxing break but I still thought we'd have some lovely moments and the mums would have a nice catch up. I was wrong!

As soon as we all arrived in the house, things seemed very fraught and stressful. The dynamics between the kids were in constant flux with seemingly one always left out (to be expected with three, I guess), but the primary conflict seemed to be between the boy and girl of my friends. They weren't getting along and the boy would often lash out at/hit the girl. The girl would then come and tell the boy's mum, who would admonish the boy not to hit, but I could tell she was becoming increasingly frustrated with scolding him.

She is a very "gentle " parent, very in tune with his needs and his biggest advocate (as any mum ought to be), and in her view, the girl was teasing and winding her son up, which was just as bad as hitting, and she was annoyed that only her son was being told off.
I think she was annoyed with the girls mum for not being more present to referee the older kids. This mum did however also have a 9mo to take care of.

The girls mum is very upset because, from her point of view, she witnessed the boy not being very nice towards her daughter and felt unable to say anything, and she acknowledges that they are all only four and these things are to be expected. She also feels upset because the boys mum did not really engage with her speak to her for the whole trip, and they have not really spoken since.

I know this is largely between them, but I am not sure what to do as they both want to talk to me about their thoughts on this. I want to be honest and supportive with both, without betraying the other.

I haven't been able to be completely honest with the boys mum as I think she has been quite unreasonable in the defense of her son (e.g. by criticising the other child in a way she would not accept from others about her child) rather than just acknowledging they are all four and this will happen.

I don't feel able to say this to her as she is very defended around this and I don't want to hurt her or risk our friendship.. As another boy mum, I do know that sometimes boys act up in a way it's easier to scold, whereas girls can be a bit more complex/clever and perhaps "get away with" more (maybe, I dunno) I don't think she was intentionally malicious in any of this, but I do feel bad for the other friend who was essentially told her daughter is a shit stirrer and has now been ostracised by the boy mum, who is still very annoyed with her in a way that is quite irrational in my view.

Does anyone have any advice/ similar experience / insight into any of this?
Than you for reading if you got this far

Except the boy mum didn't say that too her son and continued to discipline him even though she saw the unsupervised girl continuously wind him up without any consequences because she's a girl!

Sometimes you just have to separate the children and do something else. It’s normal for this to happen at 4 but better to have a few distractions to divert the children. Easy things like drawing a face, dinosaur, a ball let’s play kicking the ball, drawing a car, monster etc. At 4 they can’t just be left alone to play. Or go to a park and chat while watching them. Even at 7 kids come up to you and say so and so did this and that while they’re all doing the same. Seen this in the playground too. I think have a couple of distraction things with you and be prepared to not chat about serious or non urgent things without being distracted. I even see this in the playground with P 3 kids (7 ish). They’re still very young and it’s easier to go with the flow. Comes a point when boys and girls start having different interests though so go with the flow. However if someone is hurt it’s important that the child who has hurt says sorry to other child.

Yep, flash forward 10 years. Would that be acceptable? It’s early ‘look what you made me do’ behaviour. It’s neither of the 4 years olds fault. It’s about consistently setting boundaries and reinforcing the behaviour you expect. Even when it’s embarrassing or inconvenient.

I taught my DS to never hit and especially never hit girls so did most of my friends, from playgroup age. Sadly, a boy that was allowed to hit girls, not firmly told not to, and given excuses has grown up to be abusive towards his family.

'She is a very "gentle " parent, very in tune with his needs and his biggest advocate'

I read this sentence a few times as I thought I misread it. In my experience people who say this do not know how to / are scared to set boundaries. Why an assertive, at times aggressive child needs an advocate? As others mentioned - I'd keep an eye on DS's friendship.

Listen to what they say

instead of passing your comments on about the situation, just ask them further questions instead. So say do you think it’s changed your thoughts about holidaying with other peoples children? Or has that altered your view on her parenting style

they will be so wrapped up in their own views on the situation, that they wouldn’t notice you’re not giving your view but still actively contributing

best not to give your view in this instance- unless you want to lose a friend

I’m sorry OP but this is between them and nothing to do with you. I would make that very clear. Why are you getting involved in other people’s drama triangles. Ask them to respect your friendship and deal with it between themselves,

I think the issues you highlight are common. We have a similar issue with the kids on our street where one girl winds up one particular kid, provoking arguments because they know this kid is an easy target. Never underestimate the power of the “provoker” in provoking and then denying, or in this case rhe parent failing to see.

i wonder if this comes from the kids wanting attention whilst the mums were busy with babies or trying to chat over a cup of tea.

The issue is - these two women arent friends. They dont need to be. See them separately.

So the boy hit the girl repeatedly but she’s apparently the issue? I hate ‘boy mums’ for this stupid attitude that they can do no wrong. They are usually the ones who turn into men who expect to be waited on hand and foot and their mums are mils from hell.

hopefully you’ll realise that they’re 4 for fucks sake

My child wouldn’t be hitting other children. Totally unacceptable whether they were falling out or not (mom of 2 boys). Children may wind each other up but the boy shouldn’t have been hitting and his mother should have punished him for this and made it very clear he isn’t to do it. No doubt he will now be strsrting school and hitting will not be tolerated there either.

There is a lot of merit in teaching children that some people will question/irritate or challenge them and how to respond appropriately and assertively with resorting to anger. This needs to happen.

I cannot believe you didn't step in when the boy repeatedly hit the little girl!!! NO EXCUSE for his behaviour at 4 years of age surely. Going forward, I'd keep your son away from your friend's son. If your son is sensitive and passive, he will most likely end up being the next target of your friend's aggressive boy.

This. What a snide way to talk of a 4 year old and how misogynistic!

There is ZERO reason for a child to hit another child when the other one is “winding them up” aka being a child!! I had this shit excuse for months at school my child was being blamed for the school bully who was 3 times her size attacking her daily, strangling her/punching her etc because she was “winding him up”. They weren’t even friends! I spent the whole day with the school on a trip and was right next to my DD and she didn’t even look his way all day! this little brat came up at the end of the day and punched my dd right in the face and broke her nose and said she’d been winding him up all day! So I threatened the not so little shit that I’d break more than his nose if he came near my child again! Even then he STILL came after my dd the next day!! School suddenly became co operative when I got the police involved as breaking a child’s nose who’s 3 times smaller than you in front of their parent is an offence.

Well that was a bit unecessary. I’m sorry this happened to you and your daughter but it’s got nothing to do with the context OP explained in her particular situation..

I cannot imagine being out with friends or even just acquaintances and letting one child hit another. You step in as an adult , catch their hand, and say firmly we do not hit. If the parent wants to have a go at me about that, too bad and they are an ex friend. ‘You can choose how you parent, but I choose not to watch a child hit another. If you’re uncomfortable with that you probably need to restrict your friendship group to people who are happy to watch your child hit other children.’

I think for the most part I would stay out of it. However, if the boy's mum brings it up I probably would say that I personally don't think it is ever OK for children to hit another child, it is very damaging for both children involved to let it carry on.

Speaking for myself I have a 4 year old boy and I (try) to practice gentle parenting. Luckily my son is very cheeky, but quite gentle, so it hasn't really come up. However, if my son were hitting, I would probably completely remove him from the situation and stay with him, explain we cannot hit and ask what the matter was. I would not allow him to hit another child repeatedly, that is not gentle parenting, it is permissive. It doesn't matter if the little girl was annoying him, I think the mother of the boy should have stepped in to prevent him from repeatedly hitting another child.