To not see the appeal of Reform

[Reallyneedsaholiday]

Sure, I can see the appeal of “reform” (with a lower case “r”), noone is under any illusion that the country is in a great way, at the moment, but not the appeal of the Reform political party. And I genuinely want to understand what it is that has so many people in thrall to them. All I’m hearing is “sToP tHE bOAtS”, but Reform will not do this, no matter what they are saying now. Simply returning anyone who arrives here on a boat, without following due process and considering their application, would see the country subjected to international sanctions, that we cannot afford. The only viable way to actually stop the boats, is to address why people are using them in the first place. WE have decreed that no one can apply from anywhere other than on our soil, and so have left them with little choice. France offered the opportunity to have a centre in Calais, Rwanda would have also worked, as a base where asylum seekers could apply without risking their lives on the channel. Those who are successful could be brought here safely, and anyone using unauthorised routes, could THEN be legally removed without appeal. It’s not a difficult solution, so you have to ask yourself “why” politicians turned down the opportunity. The only logical reason for this, is that they WANT the boats to continue. Again, you have to ask yourself “why”, and the reason for THAT is simply that they want the distraction, they need the scapegoat.
We’ve all seen the headlines, claiming that asylum seekers are living in the lap of luxury, with free phones etc, which is simply not true. Asylum seekers actually cost the country less than we lose through tax avoidance, every year.

But if we put immigration aside, as the distraction that it is, what appeals about Reform? I’ve asked many people and really struggle to find any Reform supporter who can even tell me what any of their policies are. Why are they so keen to sign away our human rights, leaving us to the whim of successive governments? Why are they so keen to introduce a private health care system (good luck getting any cover if your have any pre-existing medical conditions in your family)? Why are they so keen to introduce fracking? Or to scrap “net zero”? Tbh, I’m not completely sold on “net zero” myself, but overall, being more environmentally friendly strikes me as a positive move. Less pollution, less plastics, cleaner water, cheaper, safer energy etc, etc. you could scrap the title “net zero”, while keeping the important bits that would generally improve our quality of life, without throwing what we have achieved, to date, away.

I could go on, but I’d just like to ask anyone who is thinking of voting Reform, at the next opportunity, why? And how you see your own life improving IF they won a GE?

The trouble is they offer a ‘none of anything’ option. They have no solutions, policies or plans.

The thing is, what will they do once they’ve finished bullying the immigrants and realise that their problems Maybe aren’t the £48 a week as opposed to the billions of pounds lost to tax avoidance by billionaires and corporations that Nazi Nige plans to give more tax breaks to?

That Reform supporters somehow think a privately educated millionaire stockbroker who is the son of a privately educated millionaire stockbroker is somehow a man of the people says volumes about their intelligence. Not to mention he rails against the EU but married a German and made sure his children had EU passports and tried to get one for himself, and is very happy to help himself to a massive EU pension. Then there’s the fact he claims he’ll do things differently and represent his constituents but has voted against their interests including no to improving employment rights, and has the worst attendance record of any MP.

I’d certainly agree with this. The location of the hotel riots in Rotherham isn’t to be ignored. That holiday inn was built in Manvers. What did this very particular area of Manvers used to be? The colliery. The very site of the Colliery, where thousands of men in the 1980s worked to feed their families, jobs which they then lost and often, never managed to replace. Do you know what the local Labour government built to replace those lost jobs? Call centres. For men who had spent from 15 years old down a pit, using their hands. There was nothing for them. Now, their children and their children, who have lived through generational poverty and unfairness, haven't received the education they deserved at underfunded and run down schools picked a place, wrongly, to protest that unfairness. I am NOT defending the actions of those rioters, their actions were horrific, but to prevent things, you need to understand things and it’s all very well for people who don’t live in areas like that, who have not seen social injustice their entire lives, to point ‘right wing thug’ at people but that will not fight to correct anything.

I believe that Horatio Nelson said the same when asked if he was having an affsir with Lady Hamilton.

To answer your question as most of these posters seem to just be answering why they WOULDNT vote Reform or signal their superiority to people who would it is:

1. Immigration - they have said they would massively reduce immigration which people know is a big problem. At the moment we are importing c. 500,000 pa to do low skilled jobs (which is a net cost and puts massive strain on housing,NHS etc) while paying 5m plus people to be unemployed just because Labour won't get a grip -crazy.
2. Small boats.
3. Scrapping net zero - we have the most expensive energy in the world while exporting all our manufacturing to China. No country can have any growth when industrial energy costs are so high.
4. Stopping the perceived war on eg small businesses (through high taxes, energy costs etc) and farmers. Maybe less high tax paying people would then emigrate meaning MORE govt revenue. See also the Laffer curve - if you haven't heard of it it explains that if taxes are too high people lose all incentive and tax revenue is actually lower - we are at that point now. This is just a few examples but is all in their manifesto. There are ALOT of vested interests they would also have to tackle and may not succeed. Unlike the failures in Labour who have just worked in the public sector some of Reform have run successful businesses so this also appeals to people. Hth.

I know a few people who are fans and plan to vote Reform.

The main points seem to be -

1. Reform have said there are too many boat people.

The people I know who are Reform allies live in very white areas. Many of them have grown up working class and aren't wealthy. Many of them have also earned quite well - none of them live in poverty but also aren't in a position to leave their children substantial inheritances. They've seen house prices rise to a level where their young adult children can't afford to buy. Their elderly parents have had winter fuel allowances cut but they read stories of 'immigrants' being given mobile phones whilst living in hotels and they imagine them all be be staying in the hotels they'd choose to holiday in playing on their brand new iPhones at the expense of their own families who have worked and paid in to the system.

Many of them are also angered by reports of rape and sexual assault. They forget that the majority of rapes and sexual assaults are carried out by white men born here but it doesn't matter to them anyway because the rapes committed by the asylum seekers wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been living here oh and it's not a problem generally because theyre white men and they've never raped anyone.

They don't necessarily believe that 'immigrants' are responsible for the downfall of/problems in the country but that the government should be focusing on sorting out the country for those who already live here (whatever their origins) rather than allowing thousands of undocumented people in when we have no idea why they are here or what their intentions are.

1. Of those, some of them also believe that Muslims are all interested in imposing Sharia law in the UK. That they hate 'us' for eating bacon sandwiches. That 'they' want to ban Christmas and Easter eggs. That none of them have any respect for women and that they are offended by British flags. None of those things are true..

None of them (I've asked) have any Muslim friends, neighbours or colleagues and many of them have never even spoken to a Muslim.

But stopping 'immigration' would solve that too (in their eyes).

1. While the other parties were getting their knickers in a twist about what a woman is, Reform stated quite clearly that there are two sexes and if you're born one, you can't become the other.

Some people believe that makes Reform a friend to women but most were just impressed they'd stood up and publicly said what was blindingly obvious to most people.

And that's the bottom line.

Nature abhors a vacuum and when the main political.parties are obfuscating and shutting down discussions much of the electorate wants to have, Reform is filling in the blanks.

People I know who are planning to vote Reform are scared. Scared for their futures, scared for their children's futures, scared for the state of the country and they don't think that stopping the boat people will make us all rich and happy but that it would be one 'simple' way of beginning to address some of the issues.

Farage hasn't said how they would do this any more than he said how Brexit would work, but the soundbites make the disenfranchised feel heard.

You are assuming a level of intelligence and critical thinking in Reform voters OP that very clearly doesn’t exist.

Yawn - see my reasoned post above. You are just showing your own lack of intelligence and critical thinking (I know this post will prob be deleted as mn doesn't like people pointing out individuals stupidity even if they insult others).

The BIG issue with all of this is lack of perception. People genuinely don't realise how bad the UK has become. Go into your local supermarket, I guarantee that you will notice two things. Firstly, the lack of stock, just one or two varieties of each product available. Secondly, the empty spaces on the shelves, in some cases almost whole aisles. People think this is some hangover from Covid, it isn't, it's all down to Brexit.

I was in Ireland recently, my fucking god! the difference!

The shelves were heaving, I had forgotten just how sparse our stores have become here. It was striking, but I had forgotten that what I was seeing was normal, just not for here. People need to wake the fuck up! It's not normal for a supermarket to run out of milk, or bread.

Our public services are broken. Police, Courts, NHS, Councils, all being run with a reductive mindset, cutting services just leads to more cost, not less. For example, your local council cuts back on street cleaning and cutting the grass in the park, the result is dirty streets and an park People don't use anymore. When public spaces aren't used for good things, people will use them for bad things instead. It's the Broken Window theory. The end result of all this cost saving are filthy streets, a disused park, with ASB and crime increasing, causing more pressure on the police, the courts, and local people. It's a delusional policy.

People are just fed up with it all now.

They say bad times create strong people, and strong people create good times, good times create weak people and weak people create bad times. We are just now entering the bad times, which were created by the delusion that the UK was somehow special, and that there is "enough" here for everyone, there isn't.

There isn't even bread on our shelves.

Maybe so, but I still wouldn't vote Reform. They're divisive and have no cohesive policies.

returning anyone who arrives here on a boat, without following due process and considering their application, would see the country subjected to international sanctions, that we cannot afford

Who the fuck would sanction you? International law isn’t real, you can just ignore it.

With your elevated sense of your own who do you vote for?

I’m not sure the insults to get people to vote for whoever you do does much anymore.

These are good points

No ,but they have 4 years to get some decent ones in place
Just as labour has 4 years so sort out this shit show ,and make a success of the their time in government.

Not sure why being “fed up of Con/Lab” means we need to vote for an extreme right-wing alternative.

Centre ground contains Lib Dems and The Green Party - what’s the issue there ?

Well they are not in the public eye are they ,not on social media,not on the news , reform seem to be quoted and filmed regularly.

Maybe they have got sod all experience...

Did the fact that, at one stage you had sod all experience, prevent you from learning to drive? Or becoming a parent? etc.

Let's face it - when we're born, we've ALL got sod all experience of everything.

Fortunately, people give us the chance to gain experience.

Reform will not reduce immigration. Just like the Tories didn't. And Brexit didn't.
They may reduce small boats and shut down asylum hotels, but those are hardly the U.K's biggest problem.

They will privatise the NHS, decrease spending on public services and demolish welfare, then blame it on the immigrants who are still around. " You can't get a GP appointment because of all the brown people on benefits. ( even though your actual doctor/ nurse/ carer is a brown person)." This will work very well because a country in distress needs someone to blame.

Then when all that is done, Farage and his friends will flee for the US/ Dubai/Spain.

Me neither. They're a bunch of fucking losers and wrong 'uns. As far as I can tell.

Where would the shock factor be there? The greens/lib dems are hardly ‘out there’ are they?

People are struggling and are looking for people to blame. It's easiest to blame immigrants because they are obviously different. Reform are amplifying the xenophobic rhetoric because explaining the real reasons is far more complex.

It’s very difficult because similar to brexit, Reform are willing to use any tactics to get voters to their side, which the main political parties don’t tend to use, ie masses of misinformation and brainwashing on social media. I won’t comment on the people who take what they read from these sources as fact as I understand it does stir things up.

I attach a great deal of scepticism to anything I read, and generally tend to be unsure what labour have done so far that’s so wrong? I can see that they are finding it very difficult to get through meaningful change but I think any party would struggle in this climate, honestly.

My general opinion is that a Reform government would be an unmitigated disaster for this country and if it does come to pass, will be something we’ll deeply regret and pay the price of for a very long time. We are extremely lucky that labour have another 4 years in which things might stabilise or it will at least become more obvious to the masses that Reform are not capable of forming a government.

Of course the politicians in now are trying to use SM to get you on their side.

I’m in a very safe Labour seat. It’s probably too 20 safe Labour seats in the country. I think I’ve always voted libdem (maybe an exception for London mayoral candidate when I voted for Sandi Toksvig). In many ways (owing to our electoral system) wasted votes. But our libdem councillors are genuinely fantastic. I’ll keep voting that way as I see their genuine commitment to the community.

sadly lacking where Reform is concerned.

But they are appealing to many many voters.

I read that the most dangerous voters are those that feel shafted/ignored by society/politicians. The will vote they will be vocal and we are seeing this now really playing out. Many people do feel left behind and have for some time (not just here, the US and across Europe).

For so long Farage was not taken seriously enough (similarly with other right wing populist politicians in other countries) it was always a mistake, no one has influenced our political landscape more than Farage in the last 20 years and that is really depressing.

The three main parties have to work really hard to connect with all voters, that means listening and engaging