Marriage/motherhood warning list

[Someoneshouldatoldme]

Based on many many threads here and my own lived experience, shouldn't we warn all daughters and women pre-marriage or motherhood so that they really know what they'regetting into? I'll list a few, feel free to add:

1. Don't have a child with ANYONE at all unless you know you can manage as a single parent

1. If your husband tells you they want a child and will look after them as well as you, assume they mean occasional fun times and some cooking. (If you're proven wrong, you'll be delighted)

1. Your husband might become your biggest problem once you are pregnant or with a child. Even the 'nicest' guys can (and many will) turn emotionally or physically abusive at this time. You might end up seriously hurt. Many will cheat.

1. Never assume his money is family money. He might pretend for years that it is, only for you to find out that it isnt.

Any others?

Not everyone knows what a high bar looks like. Also, a partner can SAY they will do half, look after you during maternity leave, will support your career, but when babies actually happen you realise it was all words and the reality is very different. Many of us take our time, have the conversations, watch our partners with pets, nieces, nephews and split chores equally pre-babies. How it all turns out when kids come along..well who knows.

It's not necessarily that men need to be "bad people" though to eff up their marriages. It's sufficient to be thoughtless (continuing a time consuming hobby after a baby's born); oblivious ("where do we keep the..?") or constantly assume the mum's the default parent ("I'm in America that week. Oh I didn't know about X. You get the school emails.")

I honestly didn't see the structural sexism in society until I had a child. Some men never do.

@Someoneshouldatoldme

Not everyone knows what a high bar looks like. Also, a partner can SAY they will do half, look after you during maternity leave, will support your career, but when babies actually happen you realise it was all words and the reality is very different. Many of us take our time, have the conversations, watch our partners with pets, nieces, nephews and split chores equally pre-babies. How it all turns out when kids come along..well who knows

Yes. Most people tend to follow the subconscious "template" set by their own upbringing. So if you were lucky enough to have parents with an equitable marriage driven by respect and love, there's a far better chance you will emulate it. If your childhood was neglectful or abusive or your mother didn't have much agency in the marriage, you don't have the "template" for a healthy marriage or the confidence to demand respect from a spouse.

This is particularly apposite for a woman choosing a male partner because male partners were generally (though not always) raised by mothers from a less progressive era so subconsciously expect that their wife will be a facilitator and a carer as opposed to someone with their own needs and drives.

This is why if you're determined to work while married but want your husband to support you in this and not leave all the childcare and domestic labour to you you have to spell this out very clearly before the point when you're pregnant. Because however "progressive" he might present himself now, he's very likely to default to the path set by his parents, which probably wasn't as progressive.

If your opinion and expectations of men are this low then:

a. Why do you want one?
b. You're better off single and childless anyway.

Nobody has to have a man.

If he is lazy around the house do not have a child with him, or marry him.

Get back to work, do NOT leave yourself unemployed for years and years. Part time is fine when the baby is a toddler. You will need the ability to look after yourself if he decides to cheat or is otherwise unbearable to live with.

That's true. I raised my daughter without a man until I met my partner (and most of the hard work was done by that point). I think a stable household led by a strong and solvent single woman is often a better outcome than many coupled families.

But that's a very binary way to look at the world and its hard work. Wouldn't it be good to at least strive to get to a situation where men and women can parent together well?

Never take on a fixer-upper.

Have we had the usual “Oh, but women are like this too!”!

Again, not all men are like that.

Most women chose to have a baby & chose to take a wage cut / work part time. Some women earn more & go back to work really quicker - i’ve known quite a few stay at home dads in my time but these couples have discussions & plan children & think of the future together.

The issue is that some women have babies very quickly with anyone and sometimes repeat the problem with more than one man. Yes “bad men” and hopeless, lazy men exist but the only advice needed is to get to know someone first before jumping into a serious relationship or babies, use protection & take some responsibility if it doesn’t work out rather than blame men as a whole.

I’m not naive. I know you can do that & still get caught out and some men will still cheat but the rest like being lazy, disprespectful, selfish, lazy, addictions, being a workaholic should be evident. Forums like this would have you believe every man is a wrong ‘un & every marriage is doomed and that we’ll all be single mothers and i think some of the very negative things on here are a bit extreme for “advice”

Good. If you're raising your son to believe that women acknowledging some men make poor husbands and fathers are 'bitter', that any criticism of male behaviour and encouragement not to accept it is an offence and harm to all men, he's going to become a man best avoided. A poor me, aren't women nasty to nice men NAMALTer.
Decent men know well that some men aren't great. They don't want to be like them, they don't want the women they care for to be with them, and would probably add a few points to the list themselves.

a) I don't want one anymore. I am divorced, raising 2 boys on my own.
b) single yes, childless - too late for that.

I wish i had the knowledge of what marriage and motherhood means in reality and not in fantasy-land. Didn't get any advice from my own mother unfortunately.

Much as I love this idea, I remember my Mum saying something jaded to me when I met my first H...I was only 17, and it broke my heart, as I was so innocent.

But...... if I was going to add to the list :

If you are his first girlfriend, and you marry at 20, there's a high chance that he will get to 35 and realise he has missed out on lots of vagina, and will start to play away

Don't expect him to do any meaningful housework - they don't see the dirt

If his family come to stay, the lions share of the prep will be down to you

If you split up, blood is thicker than water, and no matter what the reason, his family will side with him

Don't start buying birthday/Christmas gifts for his side of the family, or before too long it's another job that falls onto your list indefinitely

If he has a "big job" don't expect any help with night feeds

Don't put up with even the tiniest of infidelities, otherwise you give the green light, and it will grow and grow until it's full sex with other women

If you split up, don't expect your closest friends to give a shit - most friends are fair weather friends

If you split up, kids are affected forever, they don't just "get over it"

If you come to a relationship with a house, do not put him on the mortgage or deeds

If you have savings, keep them in your name

If he doesn't pay maintenance on time, report to CSA immediately, don't believe he just forgot...it will go on and on, as a form of control

Before you leave, copy his wage slips, lest he lies to CSA.

If he assaults you, report it to the Police.

And lastly, if you are thinking of leaving him, but scared, think of these metaphors :

"The ship is safe in the harbour, but that's not what ships are for"

AND

"You could be the whole package and still get delivered to the wrong address
When you get delivered to the wrong address the receiver is going to mishandle you because
They don’t know what to do with you
They weren’t meant to get you in the first place
They don’t value you enough"

There is ALWAYS a man waiting at the right address who will cherish you (in my case this was true)

I am sure I'll think of more!

lol yes all those accidents that seem to happen when partner won"t commit or in the 30's

@Blondiebeachbabe

If you are his first girlfriend, and you marry at 20, there's a high chance that he will get to 35 and realise he has missed out on lots of vagina, and will start to play away.

This is crude but unfortunately true.

This has prompted me to add another one:

Dont get married and settle down younger than your late 20s. There will be a hell of a lot of life you could have got out of your system and you may resent it. I also think very few 20 somethings have the emotional maturity for parenthood. (A lot of people will disagree but I stand by this.)

Calling women bitter is a misogynistic control technique intended to cause shame in another person and therefore force them either to defend their position or go away and submit.

Women are controlled by this technique all the time. For example:
-Make better choices (putting the shame and blame on the person who was cheated on, beaten, gaslit, left etc..)
-Have higher standards ( again, all responsibility is on the woman to know how to vet possible partners and if you dont know or choose wrong, well your fault again)
-Cheating husband your fault (cant keep a man happy, let yourself go etc..)
-Spinster, cat lady etc.. (shame on you for not being with a man. Something wrong with you)
-Slut, whore (don't think you can do what you choose with your own body)
-Single mum shame and baby-daddy comments (shame on you for making such bad choices. No one will want you now. (as if thats a bad thing..)
-Daddy issues (bad fathering causing young women attachment issues in a relationship and thats her fault for being crazy)
Etc etc..

So thats why this list. Help anyone reading make those better choices, because we get blamed anyways!

Don't marry a man who doesn't respect you.
Dont marry a man who you can't have a genuine debate with.
Don't allow financial inequality.
Married 30 years and have seen good friends either divorced or miserable because of the points above. In one case severely financially abused.

Its interesting that on a well meaning thread designed to help women avoid problematic men, some posters can't seem to focus on the wellbeing of women, and have to see it from a male perspective. Even those with daughters can't seem to see it from the perspective of their interests, only the percieved insults to their sons. The women objecting to this advice who have daughters might want to ask their own husbands if they could come up with a list they'd want their DDs to avoid. I'm betting it would be as long as ours.

I’m sorry for your experience OP but I wouldn’t want to teach my daughter to accept the very low bar you describe, nor to accept that the reality you have experienced is THE reality of marriage & motherhood.

My daughter is growing up in a household where mum & dad love each other, respect each other, communicate, are affectionate, don’t shout or fight. She’s growing up in a household where mum & dad both do the drop offs & pick ups, both cook, both clean, both play, both absolutely love the bones of their children as well as each other. She is learning what healthy relationships look like by watching us and I truly hope we set the standard for the expectations she has in relationships, rather than accepting that a man will probably do nothing so anything better is a bonus.

You and your daughter are very lucky and i wish more of us had the same experience as you. But that's not reality. Just because you have it good, doesnt mean there arent thousands, millions of women who deserve to be educated and advocated for. This is not a 'me' thread. This is a thread to raise awareness.

Why is it hard on a man not being the focus? The woman is also no longer the focus and has the body changing/exhaustion/restrictions that a baby brings, on top.
How many men do we hear of who use the leaving threat against their partner, begging for help after a difficult pregnancy/birth and has a limpet baby? If you have children, you can't just leave a relationship, because you still have to do your share, for your children.

Be very prepared emotionally, financially and physically for the teen years. Contrary to many societal expectations children do not become magically fully functioning adults over night.

I had no idea that parenting STARTS in the teen years, not ends. For many or most parents this is the stage that will be very demanding even with the most well adjusted child. Mixed with the menopause and elderly parents on both sides it is utterly back breaking. The kind of pressure and worry I never knew existed in the early years.

You can definitely shrug your shoulders and opt out, but know that you are only as happy as your unhappiest child, and the sheer severity of the consequences of not getting this stage right can be overwhelming.

As a mother, because you are carrying an enormous load and responsibility learning new strategies and fast is essential. To ruthlessly prioritise and focus on well being, rest and nutrition as much as she realistically can.

Super woman doesn’t exist, and never has. Nor does the perfect family or parent. Learn to breathe so you manage stress well, delegate as much as you can without thinking twice. Stop perpetuating the myth of motherhood. It is brutal. It can be lonely. It takes every ounce of energy and resources at times.

It IS the hardest job in the world, and you will never get much thanks for it, despite the beautiful and brilliant children you raise into the world. Society would be stuffed without us, and if I could demand one thing - it would be national recognition and respect. We shouldn’t be celebrating bloody tech or bankers but the incredible, thankless work of millions of women keeping this country silently afloat.

It’s not YOUR reality, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t reality because actually it is my reality. I’m absolutely not saying there aren’t lots of women who deserve to be educated but I would rather that education be “raise your bar, here is what it SHOULD be like, don’t accept less” rather than your version which is essentially “it’s shit, expect that so you can put up with it”.

Calling women bitter is a misogynistic control technique intended to cause shame in another person and therefore force them either to defend their position or go away and submit.

Agree totally. Whenever someone accuses a woman of being "bitter" on these threads it invariable means the poster is a) a man or b) a woman of limited intelligence who has completely swallowed the idea that a woman's job is to be grateful for accepting any scraps of commitment or love she may get.

I absolutely agree with the point that you need to marry a man who loves you more than you love him. If it’s the other way round the marriage is doomed or you will have to put up with cheating and disrespect as he will have the upper hand.

Appreciate it’s not very romantic or thrilling but romance isn’t putting food on the table or looking after you in your 70s. You are. So don’t disrupt your ability to do that for a man who doesn’t love you enough.

This, I’m not a fan of protect women at all costs which is the mentality on here.

Marry someone you are building a life with at that moment in time. If you don’t trust them / want them to take half of what you build while you’re together then don’t bloody have children with them. And don’t have children with anyone who doesn’t extend you the same courtesy.

My DH is the lower earner, main contributor to household tasks and for every pound saved in my name we make sure there is a pound saved in his. All of our savings come from my earnings but they are absolutely half his, and would be if we split. That’s why we married.

While we shouldn’t be shaming children born out of wedlock, we’ve moved too far in it being the ‘normal’ choice for a lot of people.

Also to the person who said if he doesn’t clean the bathroom before, he won’t change nappies after. I’ve never (and won’t) clean our bathrooms. That’s DH’s job. I manage just fine with nappies though.