AIBU to not fight for custody

[Franklekirk]

I’m in a really awful situation. Very outing but my 11 year old son came home on Sunday and told me he wants to move in with his dad. We split up 3 years ago and son has been with me since, sees his dad every other weekend and half the holidays.

son found the divorce very difficult to accept and has had counselling at primary school. We’re very close. dad wanted him to live with him, I’ve always said sons choice.

dad is very manipulative/ narcissistic. Over the years him and his mum have constantly bad mouthed me to my son, which he has found very upsetting. All sorts but things like calling me a “fucking fat pig”, making up all sorts of reasons he divorced me (I eventually kicked him out after numerous affairs), and telling me son they’d call social services on me but I’d lie to the social worker (I’ve said I’d welcome this as there is nothing to report).

however he’s obviously had a nice couple of weeks there with 1 week abroad. He’s told me he wants to move there for the start of secondary. Problem is this is 2 hours away so would mean moving to a school he’s not looked around (but his cousins go there).

my sons been sold a lifestyle, such as being told maintenance should go to the child so he can have a football season ticket etc whereas we don’t have spare finances (I do work full time in a well paid job but have a very expensive mortgage im
tied into which is another story of ex….).

as well as the huge financial implication on me, but this doesn’t effect the decision as that’s my issue not his.

I obviously want to fight to keep him but I don’t think it’s the right decision as legally his dad can keep him as we have no custody agreement, my son wants to go and at 11 gets a say. Yes ex is a prick but my son still has contact with him and will actually be nicer to him if hes “won”.

im arranging mediation to give my son someone impartial to speak to but we only have 1.5 weeks until he starts secondary and would starting here as planned and moving a couple of months later impact him
negatively?

Everyone says I should fight but I think I should listen to my son. Please help, I’m lost

I can guarantee he’ll be asking to come back home after a few weeks if ex is as you say he is. I’d fight for him. As a matter of interest do you have other children or new partner?

and also why is the mum seen as default parent? He has as many rights as me

Neither of you has any rights. Your son has rights.

I suspect you are exhausted by this constant war of attrition your ex plays with you. I'm sorry. It must be hard. And it must be tempting to say to your son "yes that's fine go and live with your dad" but remember he is only 11. His father is not good in your opinion. He is entering secondary. This is when the ramp to grown up life is made.

Do you really want him - a boy - to be under the total influence of his dad for those years?

Do you trust your ex to guide him through secondary school in a good way day to day?

Do you think your son will be taught to think of his mother as a "fucking fat pig" (I do think this is what will happen).

I suspect your son had a number done on him the past couple of weeks - probably a lot of "your mum is a fucking fat pig and only wants you so she can get money from me/my son" and "I miss you so much and I can't be happy unless you live here with me"

Your son is 11 - so young. He needs you now more than ever. Yeah if you don't have a custody order your ex can keep him - but you don't have to lie down and take it or hand him over with a bow on top.

with regard to your son, I would just emphasise that he is going to secondary with his pals - all together. Won't that be great. Would be very hard to be the new kid in a secondary where you know no one (and it would!)

Sounds like a reverse, surely?

I'd fight because you've said his dad is a narcissist and his partner not particularly nice.
Just why would you knowingly subject your son to this? You have to act in the best interests of your child. The non custody agreement works both ways. It doesn't give him anymore rights than you to your son so don't bend over to make it easy for him.
Maybe in his eyes it's about winning. In your eyes its about your son. If you think that emotionally he will be better off with you then of course you must fight for him to stay with you. You're the mature adult in this situation. Football tickets aren't important to a child's development. That was an underhand move by his dad.
My friend let her son go at the same age. She chose never to badmouth her ex although he always said awful things to her dc about her.
Years later as an adult the dc said he thought the ex was a narcissist. Yes he saw through him but at what cost? She hardly sees him now.

Would you really like your son to live with a horrible , manipulative man like his dad , I think you need to protect him . No formal court agreement is in place so let dad take you to court if he really wants too.Does his dad want you to pay maintenance if he lives with him full time . Give it another year and review the situation if possible .

Can you afford to pay maintenance? I think you can contest new school application.

@Franklekirk 11 is so young to decide. It used to be 15 when I got divorced. Even then, my next partner, having let child choose, found the child later felt deep down that he let them go because he didn’t want them. I think in your DS’s case it should have been discussed and decided long before now (and perhaps DS could have spent summer there rather than a couple of ‘disney dad’ weeks), not after you have bought uniform and it is all sorted. It is so difficult when you try to do the right thing and not bad mouth the other parent, but when your child is mature enough you can be truthful without being rude and unkind. I don’t know what to suggest but can’t see how they can get him in another school this late, unless they planned it in secret.

You have more rights at the moment because he lives with you, has a school placement and his life is with you. His moving is disruptive so if he keeps your son im certain you’d be able to get a prohibitive steps order to have him returned to you. You could preempt it and get some advice from CAB now to ensure he can’t refuse to return him. Then get him mediation and agree a plan going forward. He might think he wants to move but the poor lad is being pulled in two directions, he might be more comfortable telling you he wants to live with dad over telling his manipulative dad that he doesn’t want to. He needs support to make a decision this big

Children change their minds like the weather. As this is very recent, and in the aftermath of spending a nice time with his dad, I would suggest he starts at his new school, and does a term there. If after that he still would like to live with dad, get everything in place first with change of school etc.

Tend to agree.
There's nothing you can do anyway he's 11 not 3.

I'd fight that tooth and claw.

Most 11yos do not have the understanding to see how manipulative people can be. Being raised to expect football season tickets and high cost items whenever he wants them, will just create a spoilt mercenary brat, and that is not in your son's interest.

Do you think it will be good for him to grow up thinking it's ok for adults to call people " a fucking fat pig"? Do you want your son to grow up with his father's attitude to woman? His father's values?

Also, do you really think, once your ex has 'won', he'll actually take care of him, and love him unconditionally? It doesn't sound like it to me.

Your son needs calm consistent unconditional love and a quiet voice of reason. The best place for him is with you. You've got this far. Please don't abandon him now.

I get why you don’t want to fight …. Either way you are in a lose lose situation. You fight you will be seen as the baddy by everyone and your son might resent you. Don’t fight and there is a risk he will love living with dad and then learn bad behaviours from ex and his mum….

I think I would fight as it’s better in the long run to be with you and away from narcissistic behaviour he can learn

Can you offer ex to have more holidays etc …. Even give DC more pocket money from maintenance ( horrible I know and I eye rolled myself but desperate times mean playing the long game )

I could be wrong, but you come across as someone who has no fight left.

You can get a legal agreement.

An 11 year oldest opinion should be considered but I don't think he should be entirely responsible for making this decision. Also, he needs to know that you won't give him up without a fight, because you do believe that his life with you will be happier and healthier. Agree to reconsider after a term (or year) at his new school.

I thought 11 was too young for a child to have a say - I thought they had to be at least 13.

In your case I would fight. Your ex is clearly a prick and will take great delight in claiming cms from you and doing his best to make sure you do not see your son at all. Don’t expect him to be reasonable. He will not be.

And the chances are also very high that he will get sick of DS and parenting once hormones kick in and DS will be sent back to you to deal with, as an angry and confused teen. I know you don’t want that for your son. These are his formative years. Fight for your son so he doesn’t turn out like your ex.

You have said your ex/his father is a very manipulative and narcissistic

just because he gets his own way with your ds living with him will not stop him still acting in manipulative and narcissistic ways

I would absolutely fight for my child in this situation having a parent like this can be extremely damaging and he needs protecting as much as possible from him

if a friend of yous was planning to move in with her manipulative/narcissistic partner would you think that would be a good idea ? I very much doubt It

Huh? Isn't the new school 2 hours way near his dad?

Op, I wont go into detail and in this instance I’m speaking as a grandma who has grandchildren living with the wrong parent (my child) and I can only say I’m so sorry this is happening to you and your son. I well understand the mental and emotional damage that will be happening to DS, also to you and anyone else who loves him and has to stand by and watch the goings on whilst firefighting them at the same time, in order to try and minimise the damage and neglect.

I don’t have any advice to offer as each of these situations are unique and unless a person is in the midst of it even the most well meaning and sound advice just may not fit the situation. So, apart from saying ‘buy time and try to slow down your son actually going to live with his dad’, I just want to say you’re both in my thoughts and that I understand what you and your boy are going through.

You have a say because you're his mother and he is already enrolled in a school so all family members have a duty to get him there.

Your son isn't old enough ti kake his decision, listen to wiser posters above.

I fear you've your mind made up though. I couldn't allow it myself, not without a longer discussion.

I think this is a knee jerk to having a lovely few weeks together. I would say that he needs to come home and start as planned at the secondary school as let’s be honest you can’t just get places in secondary schools quickly!! I would let the dust settle and then relook at it. Side bar it does sound like you don’t mind if he goes to his dads and/or you are a little defeated or low. You need to be very careful what happens next as you could lose your son for good.

You sound like you’re perhaps under the impression that at age 11 the child’s “wishes” would be the be all and end all in a court situation and are folding because of this? FYI this isn’t the case. The child’s view would be considered but not definitive and it’s possible other clues would be picked up on if there was an s7 report.

Dealing with a manipulative ex is completely exhausting and confusing but keep using your child’s needs to guide you. This doesn't only mean doing what the child suddenly says they want, particularly in the context you’ve described involving emotional pressure, manipulation and bribery. What a child says, particularly under pressure, isn’t the full picture and going with it, no matter what, may mean not meeting the child’s real needs at all. Your child needs stability, safety and unconditional love.

You’re also being swayed by fear that the father could decide not to return your child anyway and you seem to think the legal position would be that you should agree and facilitate. I understand your fear; these situations are so stressful and scary. Please get some legal advice and use any trusted support you can find to talk it all through properly before giving in. Try to slow it all down - not working to the start of term - and buy time, without promising the child you will definitely do as he asks, rather that you are listening and considering. This way you can make a more informed and considered decision. Please don’t be swayed only by your fear of what the father could do.

How would you respond to your son though when he becomes an adult and later asks why you didn’t fight more when you knew how narcissistic and manipulative your ex was?

I ask this because my now adult DD has queried decisions I made when she was younger on the basis she had a choice. Looking back as an adult she now points out that she had been a child and I should have sometimes overruled her.

I would not do this without getting legal advice and mediation to be honest. You’d want to lock into place stuff about how the ex’s family talk about you and contact arrangements for school holidays etc. so that your son doesn’t get isolated and alienated from you.

This is a huge decision, that affects multiple lives, it can’t be made in a matter of a few weeks.

Let him know you are absolutely open to it, but there are huge adjustments for everyone, and it is going to take time (this is a life lesson). He stays with you in the near future, but time with Dad can increase, and see how he feels in another 6 months.

They are using the pressure of school to make it happen quickly.

I don’t know if he can keep him legally or not, cross that bridge when it comes.

My two cents, from the perspective of someone who had a child with a highly manipulative and abusive narcissist, and has done numerous rounds of court and mediation.

Everyone will tell you to fight it, with a level of judgemental horror if you hesitate, because that's what others tell themselves they would do. However only you know what will be the right course of action for your and your son's safety.

People with no personal experience of family court believe it will fix everything. Sadly justice as we believe should happen rarely occurs in family court. Court orders give rules to follow, but the downside is the rules often makes things worse. Plus you give someone who loves slandering you a platform and they will run with it. It's a horrific process. Anyone with the experience of family court with an abusive ex would not recommend it so heartily.

My advice would be always focus on your relationship with your son. Make him feel loved, respected, listened to and accepted, because your ex will never be able to give him that. It will always hit a point were the mask slips. Ask him questions about how he feels and why. Be the opposite of his dad.

If you said no to your son now, do you think ex would withhold him? Do you think he would take it to court or mediation himself? Do you have the means financially, emotionally, physically, for court?

I do think you need legal advice on your situation, but I think you need advice from Women's Aid too. WA can't give you legal advice but they can signpost a solicitor and explain how a man like your ex may proceed. Be warned some solicitors are ready to push you into court for the paycheck so be clear you want advice only first.

Lastly, you won't be a bad mum if you do let him go. Some people don't understand that and that's fine. As someone else said, no matter what you do, ex will twist it, especially when you say no to something. Get some legal and WA advice and go from there. Best of luck to you 🤞