Have you met Lucy Letby ?

[brightonchicka]

Just curious - watched documentary and i am convinced of her guilt and intrigued by her apparent wolf in sheeps clothing demeanour - Just wondering if anyone HAS met her /encountered her and what she is like ?!

I’m not completely wrong though am I - you’re actually agreeing with what I said which is that you can’t tell who is guilty or what they’re guilty of by using ‘instinct’.

The system is designed to be used by a range of people and for a range of purposes - just like any system. Again, if it’s part of your role to look up index offences at any stage of your contact with prisoners then of course it’s legitimate to do so. That’s not the case for everyone who has access to the system, and there’s a big difference between checking details for a report or similar, and having a nose at people because you ‘got a bad feeling’ about them. I would hope you’d agree, because it’s not great for anyone working in a secure setting if staff have a leaky attitude to information. I’ve been in prisons where senior staff were escorting off the premises for collecting data about prisoners they had no contact with, for some unknown purpose. To sell it? To make contact later? Who knows.

Which documentaries have yoy watched? The Panorama and ITV ones? Bevause if so I think you might see 45 seconds tops of LL across all four documentaries - all of which I belueve is repeated across them.

You’re watching through a lens too -two lenses in fact: the lens of the producer(s) and then your own lens.

You can hardly make an informed judgment of Hes behavioyr frok these sources.

It’s something I would think if I were brand new working in a NICU setting. When I was younger I probably would havd said it, wrongly thinking colleagues would automatically get what I meant. And in no way would it’s intended meaning have been ‘I need to get started on my planned killing spree’.

No I’m not.

As I have said, some people you get a gut instinct about and I believe we have a primal instinct that recognises when we’re in danger.

A few times I have been in situations that I have felt unsafe, even though nothing bad is happening and I make myself safe asap.

There have been times when women have been attacked and they said they knew something bad was about to happen.

Sometimes people do have that instinct.
Just because you’ve never felt that about someone, doesn’t mean you are right and others are wrong.

But at the same time with some people, you genuinely can’t tell and they are very unassuming or charming.
So you cannot use it to judge whether someone is guilty or not in a court.

And I wouldn’t have access to a system that I could use.

And I would absolutely use that system to look up someone I had a ‘bad feeling’ about.
I have been to other members of staff saying I don’t feel comfortable and the first thing they do is check that system to see what their crime is and if they’re a risk to females or if any relevant notes have been put on their case notes.
I do exactly the same.
It’s literally what it’s purpose is.

And obviously if you’re using a system to look up someone who you have no contact with, then it’s not ok but I’ve not said I’m doing that.
I said I’m looking up those that I am in contact with - which you seem to think is misconduct.

Tbh I think you’re tying yourself in knots to be right but making yourself look silly in the process.

But the evidence was seriously flawed and some has been shown, retrospectively, to be false. At least one of the doctors has been proven to have been dishonest and inconsistent in his statements.

I don’t know if Lucy Letby is guilty or not but my inclination is that she isn’t. That may be seriously wrong but there are several factors that lean me that way. I worked for many years in a local authority where scapegoating was the norm. I have seem people who had had careers ruined with managers doing some serious arse covering for their own mistakes. Once that wagon starts rolling it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to stop and the victim of the scapegoating stands little to no chance of escaping it. Cases are built on mistruths that become absolutely watertight and leaves the scapegoated one with no defence. People see it but don’t speak out against the injustice they see because they know their neck will be next on the chopping block if they do.

The hospital was poorly managed and in special measures. It is easy to see why someone has to be found to carry the buck for its failings. If I remember rightly at the time several of Lucy Letby’s colleagues spoke out in her defence and were silenced with warnings of losing their jobs if they didn’t keep quiet.

Dewi Evan’s came out of retirement and set himself up as an expert. He had never been to the hospital, never been involved in any of the cases, and, in fact, it was he who overturned the initial coroners reports of natural death. Dewi Evan’s has a known history of making the facts fit his intended outcome. He volunteered his services because he ‘knew’ she was a wrong ‘un.

There have been several serial killers with life sentences but I have never known a case where world renowned genuine experts have spoken out so vociferously against the verdict. Studies that were used were misinterpreted to fit the crime.

If nothing else there is a good case for a retrial bringing in real experts not just a retired oddball who can make the evidence suit the needs of the hospital and the police. This will, of course, cause distress to the parents but that is not a good enough reason to keep a young woman in prison for the rest of her life.

So were 540 people who had their convictions overturned between 1997 and 2022 after their case was referred back to the court of appeal by the CCRC (theres been more since 2022)

https://ccrc.gov.uk/news/more-than-one-miscarriage-of-justice-overturned-every-week-this-year/

So too were the 1300+ individuals who had their convictions overturned on appeal (not via the CCRC) between 2019-2020

https://www.law.ac.uk/about/press-releases/wrongful-convictions/

All the poor post masters who had their lives ruined by Royal Mail - some of them committed suicide

Timothy Evans
Mahmood Hussein Mattan
Derek Bentley (who had the mental age of an 11 year old)
Too late for them because we hanged them.

It’s terrifying that so many people want ‘guilty’ to be the end of the road with no route to appeal.

People can, and do misuse systems they have legitimate access to - in fact I think it’s one of the pieces of circumstantial evidence in Letby’s case. I didn’t say what you were doing was misconduct, I said using a system improperly could be misconduct. It seems to have touched a nerve for some reason and you seem not to realise people do that, even if you don’t.

I hope for your sake your lone working policies are better than people getting bad feelings and checking the system to see if someone has bothered to update it. That sounds incredibly dangerous. I’ve only worked in higher security environments where any flags are made clear to everyone in a pretty structured and dynamic way, so maybe I’ve been lucky. I wouldn’t want to work somewhere that I had to constantly watch my back, that sounds super stressful.

i don’t see why you need to try to insult me. I don’t agree with you, you don’t agree with me. I’m explaining my position, as are you. What’s silly about that?

her strange giddiness after deaths

brightonchicka

how or where did you get this information?

I'm delighted you did!!!

@MikeRafone was discussed in court …

I'd like to know that.

You know I've suffered half a dozen bereavements directly, and been peripheral to a number if others over the last five - six years, and i can honestly say that some of my own reactions, and some of the reactions of people I've had to inform have the appearance of "inappropriate". However, what it actually is is usually a combination of shock, awkwardness, loss for words, attempts to fill an awkward void with anything, everyone's response and behaviour is completely unique and I have come to learn it means very little in the context of what a person really feels when the shock wears off.

"You're joking" is a common one, with often a really nervous laugh, followed by mortification because it's an involuntary response.

"Giddiness" might simply imply she had nervous energy and might have been over compensating in trying to help. I've directly experienced that too.

Plus verbal diarrhoea, people trying to push cups of tea at you, scrabbling for tissues etc.

Dealing with death is fucking awkward for everyone involved, even professionals.

When my Dad died, I informed his housing officer who had brought tenancy documents to his hospital bed to finalise his permanent tenancy. I informed her over the phone, and she said "Oh, I am sorry, he did look very poorly, I didn't think he was going to make it when I saw him". Yes, it stung, and I had her on speaker phone so the friend with me had her jaw on the floor. I could have complained, but what's the point? She'll get a mouthful one day if she says something like that to someone less jaded and cynical than I.

I don't think she's going to murder anyone though.

I think this a fucked up weird question so I'm reporting it.

Citations please?

You insulted me first by claiming my post was ‘utter bollocks’ and suggested that I was misusing a system that was designed to be accessed.

If you know anything about prisons then you should know that you cannot always tell someone’s crime by just looking at them and it’s naive for people to think that you’d be able to tell whether someone is guilty of a certain crime by just meeting them (which is what this thread is about).

But some people absolutely give off a vibe.
And some people definitely get an instinct that something is ‘off’.

Even as a child I remember being around certain men and not wanting to be left alone with them, even though they never did anything to me.

Maybe some peoples instincts are louder than some others.

You don’t agree that this instinct exists, fine but you don’t invalidate someone’s opinion by saying it’s complete bollocks.

You said ‘I can tell that someone is in for rape, murder or peadophilia’

That, I said, was utter bollocks. You work in a system where there are multiple clues so you have no idea if it’s your instinct or your trained observation and experience. Spend some time in a prison setting and you quickly see that you can spot child sex offenders, lifers, people in recovery etc from clues in appearance, behaviour and also things like jobs, associates and regime differences.I don’t even think that’s controversial.

You’ve gone on to say you that you can’t tell if someone is guilty by looking them. On that we agree.

I didn’t suggest you’d done anything wrong, I asked. You said not. The discussion has continued on what constitutes misuse. I’m sorry you feel that’s an allegation. I think it’s pretty clear that it isn’t.

That's the sort of awkward thing I would have said if I was the housing officer. To me that just seems like she was concerned more than thinking what's the point in being here looks like he's on his way out. What she said would sound ok to me.

But when exfil died suddenly and I went to cancel the newspapers the newsagent got very shitty and said he would have preferred more notice.! I said so would we but unfortunately he just dropped dead.

Paul McCartney still gets blasted for his reaction to John Lennon's shock death,
He said,"It's a drag!". Later had to explain himself!

As I said, way before working in a prison, even as a child, I definitely would be around people who I had a bad feeling about which turned out to be true.

I have a good instinct.

But as I also said, some people you cannot tell, even now that I have so much experience - and they’re the dangerous ones because they’re the ones you’d least expect.

It’s not utter bollocks to say that in my profession I can quickly tell what some people are in for and others I wouldn’t have a clue just by meeting them.
It’s the absolute truth.

This is in response to OPs question about whether someone knows Lucy and if they think she’s guilty or not.

It’s not utter bollocks to say that in my profession I can quickly tell what some people are in for and others I wouldn’t have a clue just by meeting them. It’s the absolute truth.

That’s not what you said - you said you could tell when people were in for certain specific crimes based on instinct. It’s not instinct, it’s professional experience and being familiar with the markers of those convictions and how people serve their sentence.

Anyway, since you’ve changed your original point and we agree, so nothing more to say on that.

Dear God 🤦🏻‍♀️

Totally agree. The parents don’t give a shit. The kids don’t give a shit. It comes down to being given boundaries about what’s acceptable behaviour or not. I’m assuming those that go on to commit heinous crimes have been either brutalised or let down in some other way.

Either that, or they just copy the very poor examples they are set. It's like a pandemic, and I'm afraid that we are getting towards the stage where the positives are in the minority.

Up thread someone mentioned working with Dennis Nilson . There was a biography written about him called Killing For Company. If I remember rightly the only part of his childhood which influenced his career as a serial killer was the bringing home of grandads dead body and having it in the house until the funeral. Didn't have an idyllic childhood but it wasn't the cause.

I’ve read Killing for Company more than once. Found it fascinating. Yes I think that incident triggered something in Nilsen