The school run has put me off other women

[SueSuddio]

I used to have a woman problem. In my 20s I mostly sought out male friendship & thought I had nothing in common with other women save for a couple of female friends.

When I got pregnant and had children, my head spun and I felt ashamed of myself with all my internalised mysogyny. I was lucky to make some lovely friends - I gravitate towards women now.

However, I was then introduced to the school run. Tons of women, tons of cliques. And I had a flashback to the bitchy girls at school, the bullies and even my friends who were nice one minute, nasty or ignoring me the next. I'm not getting bullied now, but I'm often getting ignored.

I still think I had internalised mysogyny when I was younger, but I also think it was completely supported by the female nastiness I encountered, echoes of which I see at the school gate.

Hoping it passes but can anyone relate?

Yeah I can relate, find male relationships and conversations so much easier, I find it hard to relax and let my guard down around women. Working on it and getting somewhere though.

I’ve dug deep as to why:

• In an environment with hardly any women from age 15 (think something like an only girl in a boys school or similar), so have found it very intuitive to trust men, go to them with any problems etc, generally always had experiences of being helped and cared for
• Experiences when younger with some girls bullying me, falling out with ‘friends’ etc, and then a boy coming round and saying ‘you’re really clever and nice, they’re just jealous’, playing with me in the sandbox, being nice. Didn’t have a close female friend til age 9, it always got toxic really quickly even though I was popular at school and at home. Especially ages 5-12 that was often the dynamic
• Physically abused by a woman at a young age, which may be the biggest factor

You’re not alone and it’s not abnormal to feel this way. I know society likes to prescribe to us that we should choose who we trust and befriend based on gender and that men basically can’t be trusted, but you’ll have reasons as to why this is your experience x

Probably because they're not bitchy cliques? They're just guys chatting.

Anyone who says female bitchiness isn't a thing has either not been paying attention to it - or is the cause of it!

But I don’t really look to the school run as a place to make friends. I have friends. I have a busy life apart from my kids and being a parent. I know for some people the school run is all they do and their whole world, but it’s literally like brushing my teeth. It’s just a necessary task, like taking out the bins. Be nice and polite to everyone and get in and out. Make friends with people you actually like.

I think this is the approach you need OP.

I completely agree with you @IndyNial , it seems to be that the location of the school gate is a trigger for some, when in fact, it could be anywhere. Women, it seems, get the blame once again.

I'm not a woman who likes men more than women, all my real friends are women, but I do find, in a small talk/don't really know anyone situation, it is much easier to join a group of men than women.

@Trendyname

That’s your comprehension issue. You removed all the relevant information and arrived at a conclusion suiting your agenda to make a point and think you are better.

There's nothing wrong with my comprehension. And it's nothing to do with thinking I'm "better".

I've read literally dozens of these threads over the years. Invariably if you drill into what the "offence" that's triggered this accusation of "bitchey cliques" it will be something incredibly trivial. Someone failed to smile at someone else at pick-up. Some mums went for a coffee once and the OP wasn't invited. Etc etc.

It is people who are anxious and struggle with social situations who catastrophise and assume (on no evidence) that because they aren't invited to a specific event that no one likes them. It's an excess of anxiety and a failure of resilience and usually unresolved issues from their own school years.

Instead of slagging off other women are more confident or have better friendship networks, they'd do a lot better using it as a wake-up call to deal with their anxieties.

@Jumpingthruhoops

Anyone who says female bitchiness isn't a thing has either not been paying attention to it - or is the cause of it!

Or, just possibly, doesn't care where they fit in the school mum hierarchy and has other friends outside school?

The school run is very different as it puts a bunch of mums together in the playground with zero shared interests. It's literally too random, like the middle of town or prison! A mix of people that have nothing in common except children! At least when you join a club/workshop or event, you feel drawn to some people as you share a common interest and can make conversation. I did 2 lots of the school run and I learned to stand far away from groups and smile at those I make eye contact with. That saved me years of problems that other mums were apparently experiencing. I already have friends so I just want to be civil, so drop my kids and leave!

There are clicks! One group were the working mums or nans in place of working parent, the nans, the rough mums that don't work and a group of sahm wearing fabulous gym outfits. The working mums didn't ever speak to the non working groups. The rough group would speak to anyone and the sahm stuck together like glue and ignored everyone. So remember it's just school! Drop them in and pick them up! Smile if someone looks at you and keep walking!

Me neither.Ours was a friendly school gate.

Hi OP are you particularly unique looking or good looking / have a great figure? Are you also a bit shy around new people? I've noticed that if women have one or in particular all of these traits then i can believe it, women can be very mean and unfriendly. A lot of women don't like to admit this but it is true from what I've seen.

Yes there are lots of nice people, the school gates can also be stressful and not great for lots of women too. It’s ok to talk about this. I think if you were bullied at school they can be especially stressful.

One group were the working mums or nans in place of working parent, the nans, the rough mums that don't work and a group of sahm wearing fabulous gym outfits. The working mums didn't ever speak to the non working groups. The rough group would speak to anyone and the sahm stuck together like glue and ignored everyone. So remember it's just school! Drop them in and pick them up! Smile if someone looks at you and keep walking!

My primary school mum network wasn't like this. There were kids and mums from all walks of life from people on benefits and asylum seekers to women working in big corporate law jobs and one family where the dad was a retired minor pop star.

Obviously we weren't all going to become lifelong friends but people were friendly, there was some social activity and by and large most people were invited.

You can't expect to make BFF friends (its a plus if you do) but it wasn't like Upstairs Downstairs. Most people don't have the time to obsess on where they sit in the demographic hierarchy and scheme to exclude others, they are busy just cracking on with their lives.

I’m jealous! I think some years can be nicer than others too. Just life I suppose.

Groups of women in the pub or playing golf don't get called bitchy cliques either.

The school gate is just groups of women who know each other, chatting. Plus the odd straggler who is too socially awkward to muck in and strike up a chat.

I’ve had 4 children, over 21 years, and I have never, ever experienced a school mum clique.

I smile, have a chat if I want, give out invites to partie, the parents stay when they are little, you have a chat and give them food. They will have a few closer friends they sometimes want to invite for play dates - I’ve always found that those children and their families tend to be “like us” if you know what I mean, which is usually why the kids get on so well and a few of those parents have become good friends of ours.

Some parents drop off and pick up and don’t chat at all, I’ve never given it a second thought. I’m just at home alone all day, bored shitless, I don’t have a friendship group of my own after moving a lot, so I see it as a way to maybe meet a couple of nice people I click with, which I have.

The only drama I’ve ever know was with the one I home educated for a few years. Now those home ed parents were a nightmare all of their own 🤣

Well, it SHOULD be ok to talk about this, but some of the posters have been incredibly rude and defensive.

@Katherine9

Groups of women in the pub or playing golf don't get called bitchy cliques either.

No, but when they're standing outside school a group of two or more women talking and smiling is a conspiracy to exclude other mums. It's in the Rulebook.

A "bitchy clique" has become a Mumsnet collective noun for a group of women standing outside school. Like a Murder of Crows or an Unkindness of Ravens.

The school gate cliqueyness is a thing- same with baby groups, PSAs etc. Our PSA was an absolute bullying horror show until the main offender and her acolytes children moved on- then it was great. There are some women who are terrible for this sort of behaviour and they gather their kind round them.
I don't find men do this but their shittiness can manifest itself in whole different ways.
You wouldn't want to be friends with them so why worry- you will find some nice women parents out there.

Some people obsess too much about other people's opinions. I've never cared about what somebody thinks about me, I am friendly to everybody but I'm also extremely anti social and like to just be left alone. I smile, have small chat and then carry on with my day. Even in school, I never cared about the 'mean girls' because I was confident in myself.

For me, the school run and everything to do with school it puts me off men more than women. Even in families with two full-time working parents, the mothers are significantly more visible around school than the fathers, as a general rule.

Well, there were plenty of nasty mums at my sons' school. The trophy wife gang, the wealthy mums gang and the sporty set. Not many of the mums worked and they were deeply unpleasant to those who did. There were three of us (G.P., solicitor, artist) who were on the receiving end from most of the others, it made my day when I saw one of them dropping off. I'm not surprised some of us prefer male company, no bitchy comments or put downs from them.

I moved to a totally new area when DS1 was just starting school. I didn’t know a soul and all the school run mums knew each other from NCT, playgroup etc. They welcomed me with open arms, made my move so much easier and we’re still friends 30 years later.

Having said that, I made the effort too. I made conversation, showed an interest, invited them round and organised play dates. I walked up to groups, introduced myself and started chatting.

Honestly, it’s a two way street. What you call a clique is just a group of women who know each other. You need to make the effort to know them too.

Totally agree. And maybe there are cliques but mostly I just see women chatting with the people they know to say hi to. I often feel like I don’t know many mums at school but I’m equally sure I look exactly the same as other mums, I have 2 dc there so of course I know people. It’s socially quite a challenging environment for many women really.

I agree. I think there’s something specific about how it’s generally (and historically) a majority female environment that makes people suddenly go “we should all be friends!” And if that’s not the case, suddenly it’s all “bitchy”.

And I say this as someone who doesn’t know anyone on the playground as we recently moved. I don’t think they’re all cliquey bitches. I think they’re just talking to their friends.