The school run has put me off other women

[SueSuddio]

I used to have a woman problem. In my 20s I mostly sought out male friendship & thought I had nothing in common with other women save for a couple of female friends.

When I got pregnant and had children, my head spun and I felt ashamed of myself with all my internalised mysogyny. I was lucky to make some lovely friends - I gravitate towards women now.

However, I was then introduced to the school run. Tons of women, tons of cliques. And I had a flashback to the bitchy girls at school, the bullies and even my friends who were nice one minute, nasty or ignoring me the next. I'm not getting bullied now, but I'm often getting ignored.

I still think I had internalised mysogyny when I was younger, but I also think it was completely supported by the female nastiness I encountered, echoes of which I see at the school gate.

Hoping it passes but can anyone relate?

Exactly. The only thing that ‘school mums’ have in common is that they are women, and that they have children. So are we saying that all women with children are bitchy/cliquey/whatever else, or just the ones who happen to take their kids to school and pick them up?
Some are nice. Some aren’t. Just like some men are nice and some aren’t. And some child free women are nice and some aren’t.

I don’t think you’ve been around all-male or male dominated workplaces. DH works in a deeply male industry, which is 100% male in this country at senior level , and it is, at times, astonishingly back-stabbing and focused on petty power play and malice. I’m often in the car with him when he’s on Teams meetings and calls, and I would absolutely characterise his industry as ‘bitchy’ and catty, but both those are gendered terms. The fact that the people involved are wearing ties and fighting about multi-million deals doesn’t change the petty malice that often powers things alongside the money-making.

Was just going to say the same thing lol

This is probably it. Try volunteering with the pta or other areas of the school community. There will be more opportunities for meaningful interaction and you might spark it off with somebody.

Sometimes it does feel a bit rubbish if you are on your own in a busy public environment like that with no one to vent to about day to day things.

This is probably it. Try volunteering with the pta or other areas of the school community. There will be more opportunities for meaningful interaction and you might spark it off with somebody.

Sometimes it does feel a bit rubbish if you are on your own in a busy public environment like that with no one to vent to about day to day things.

Mum cliques absolutely so exist.
I didn't realise I was in one until I was back on the outside of it. It's not in anyone's head and they do make things uncomfortable.
My daughter's starting a new school this coming term and I can't wait to have a fresh start and not involve myself with any of the other parents.

Why don't you don't just drop your kids off at school and then leave? Easy to do. 🤷

I think when my son starts school I won't try to make friends like last time as it always gets awkward when the kids inevitably fall out!

Absolutely. But tbh, the school gate thing only lasts about 5 or 6 years, then children are more independent and you don’t need to hang about in the playground. I did make friends with some mums when mine were at primary, but it’s usually superficial, and once you don’t need to arrange play dates etc anymore, or don’t need someone to pass the time with whilst you’re in the playground waiting, these friendships normally fizzle out.

I just stand on my own or sit on a bench in the playground. Third child going through. I don't mind if anyone speaks to me or not, it's no skin off my nose. It gets easier with time! The more children that go through the system the less you mind!

No they'd say hi and then turn their backs and return to talk to another person in their group. For example, before the holidays, I saw one of them and said, "Hi, how are you?" She replied, "Good thanks, you?" And then turned her back to me and went to speak to someone else and clearly not wanting to continue a conversation. Or another instance, I bumped into one of the mum's at the school gate and started making polite conversation while we walked, but as soon as she saw other members of the group standing then mid sentence she says, "OK, see you later," and walks away quickly to stand with them. This is awkward as obviously our children are in the same class so I also need to stand outside the classroom door and am walking to the same place...

For what it's worth I've always had female friends, I take care of my appearance, and like to think I'm a fairly confident and friendly person. I have no issues with mums outside of this group in my other child's class or in my youngest child's nursery. Just because it's not something you've experienced doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Luckily I have other friends, can brush it off and find someone else to go and say hello to, but it still doesn't feel great.

Sorry had to laugh out loud at that. PTAs can be an absolute vipers’ nest. I went to my first PTA meeting thinking I’d get to know people, maybe make some friends. I emerged having somehow been voted in as chair, and got universally disliked or avoided from that point onwards (apart from 2 other people who were also trying to make the PTA work). Including by the few parents I already knew fairly well.

If you think that continuously begging busy parents for money and to volunteer their time, trying to organise events in a school where staff are run off their feet, stressed, and all thinking of leaving, is the way to win friends and influence people - go right ahead 😂

But maybe she wanted to talk to the other people more? She did the socially acceptable thing, then went to talk to her mates. It's probably more polite to stay talking to the person you saw first, but if I'm making polite conversation with Ian on my street, then I see Barbara walking past, I actually want to talk to Barbara, because she saw what was kicking off last night. Or whatever.

Mmmm 🤔 my experience is that often there are cliques at the school gates. Not always the case that there are cliques and unpleasantness but don't ignore your own observations and kid yourself it's all luvvy duvvy and blame yourself if it's hard to find anyone friendly to talk to. Yes, your past can get projected onto those who are totally innocent of cliquiness but regardless of past negative experiences, of which you seem very self aware, the school gates can still feel like a very hostile place if you are the newby wanting to find a social group, or just friendly people to chat with while you wait. Sometimes that's because people are just too busy or already in a small closed group and not looking to meet new people, quite understandable, but then, sometimes, they form into cliques where they seem to be getting a sense of worth by deliberately excluding outsiders - pointedly ignoring people, unpleasant gossip, labelling and even bullying. I've met a huge range of people at the school gates and still have many friends from my first child's cohort. There was just one from my time there with my second child who was himself bullied and excluded by an unpleasant 'in-crowd' of women who went out of their way to try and make us feel we weren't good enough for them. He was popular enough with his classmates but not allowed to play with them after school and all sorts of unpleasant stuff went on (he's a very caring and well balanced adult now, happily not scarred for life). It wasn't a good experience, especially as the group was quite large, spent a lot of time talking about the importance of the local community and how people should feel they belong but then refusing to speak to me, a neighbour, and another rather bemused mum, so I guess we weren't alone as there were two of us (still friends, she's still in the same town, still getting the cold shoulder). Just saying, tread cautiously and be persistent, be prepared for worst and hopefully you'll find some lovely people or perhaps even just one or two people you can make friends with.

Mum cliques or groups of friends? I’m sure the people in the so called mum cliques have no idea that they are perceived as being in a clique, they are just hanging out with their friends which they are perfectly entitled to do. Also they are probably not obsessing over other people’s interactions towards them and just going about their day!

I agree, when I was part of a group of mum friends we would all stand together. We were friends inside and outside of school so we chatted at the school gate. I then got divorced and no one speaks to me now, which is fine, I don't mind standing on my own. I stood with the as our children were friends but more importantly we were friends as adults.

This is a you problem. Sometimes I want to chat to people at pick up, sometimes I don’t. If I thought people might be offended by that (as you clearly are) that’s a you problem. You need to be less needy and less sensitive. Everyone’s fighting their own battles and you have no idea what people are dealing with behind closed doors day to day.

Everyone’s fighting their own battles and you have no idea what people are dealing with behind closed doors day to day.

This is why I don’t say flippant things like ‘this is a you problem’ to people.

The mum clique in my dds class were so bizarre....at morning drop off they would all hug each other to say hello. After they'd sent their DC into the classroom they'd all hug each other goodbye. At pick up in the afternoon, they'd all hug hello then once their DC were sent out they'd all hug goodbye again. It was so bizarre to watch...

I never had an issue at the school gates ss I generally knew someone to speak to from a child’s birthday party or a neighbour etc. I wasn’t aware of any nastiness. Some (not that many) I genuinely clicked with, others I just saw occasionally for a quick hello. I think women that have had bad school experiences with bullying mean girls understandably struggle with groups of women, especially in a school setting. Those girls still exist in high schools and are still awful!!! I could easily identify them at my daughter’s recent prom. Chances are those school mums are they are just talking to friends they have known for a while. If they are truly bitchy, then you are better off without them. You will find your tribe elsewhere, primary school doesn’t last long.

Omg men can be so mean in the office! They are way bitchier than women are. With the addition that some are pervy too and some grade women on looks out of 10 🙄. Maybe that’s only lawyers though as the only offices I’ve worked in.

I met lots of brilliant women at the school gates. And at school, university and work. Think I am just lucky maybe.

I think that unless you’ve witnessed and experienced active unkindness from these people, then what you perceive as ‘bitchy cliques’ is most likely just ‘groups of people who know each other chatting’, and historic bad experiences are causing you to project unresolved feelings onto them. We all gravitate towards people we know in any given situation - it’s very normal.

Some of the best advice I have ever been given is: you would worry much less about what people think of you if you knew how infrequently they actually do.

I mean, it's up to you who you choose to gravitate towards and if you prefer the company of men then who's anyone to object?
I was bullied by other girls at school. I was a bit different and didn't fit the small town mindset. Then I ended up at an all girls high school! I live in a small town now and still don't fit in with certain groups but I don't care what they think or say about me.
You say they ignore you but have you joined in any conversations? I'm naturally shy and reserved with new people and envy those who seem to just turn up and immediately get accepted as one of the crew but I also accept that I'm not gregarious and that people do generally view me with suspicion before they talk to me, but again, I don't care these days! I like who I like, be they male or female. The people that matter know me and have my back and to coin a phrase, what others think of me is none of my business.

This!!! 100% this. I've a friend who is insecure and the mental leaps are bonkers "I saw so and so out with so and so on Instagram and we didn't even get an invite" as we sit together at a cafe on a coffee date that we didn't invite anyone else to! Some people get on and make friends, others don't, some people already have enough friends, some people are just not friendly, some people can be mean but most aren't. Almost nobody (or at least no normal person over 16) makes plans and texts their friends saying "ooh let's not invite Kathy, she was wearing pink on a Thursday so we should all leave her out forever". Yes, people chat in groups, yes people make friends and meet up with them at other times. It's not a personal vendetta.
I actually think it is internalised misogyny because women are "supposed" to be kind and inclusive and maternal, but the reality is we all want to just hang out with our favourite people, which isn't unkind. When men hang out with their friends it's never described as a "clique" or as bitchy... drives me mad.

@VeryLightToast belittling aside I admire your thick skin and not 'blaming other women' when you didn't integrate, I actually want to be like this.

I appreciate the nuanced replies and it seems pretty split so far on what's happening in my experience.

I expect this just reflects the reality. There are cliques at the school gate but I'm also projecting hostility onto these 'groups' because of my school days. Of course I'm not the only one doing this, far from it.

I also fully expected the blunt replies, I mean, I've started a goady AIBU 🙈

The thing that's annoyed me most about the clique in my year group is that it limits your interactions. You try and chat with mum x and as soon as another person from the clique turns up, you're passed over. And that's really frustrating.

I think my expectations were maybe unrealistic too. At nursery it was different, the parents mixed well and I thought the school gate would be more of the same.