The school run has put me off other women

[SueSuddio]

I used to have a woman problem. In my 20s I mostly sought out male friendship & thought I had nothing in common with other women save for a couple of female friends.

When I got pregnant and had children, my head spun and I felt ashamed of myself with all my internalised mysogyny. I was lucky to make some lovely friends - I gravitate towards women now.

However, I was then introduced to the school run. Tons of women, tons of cliques. And I had a flashback to the bitchy girls at school, the bullies and even my friends who were nice one minute, nasty or ignoring me the next. I'm not getting bullied now, but I'm often getting ignored.

I still think I had internalised mysogyny when I was younger, but I also think it was completely supported by the female nastiness I encountered, echoes of which I see at the school gate.

Hoping it passes but can anyone relate?

I agree.

I don’t think anyone is doing anything wrong. Yes, it is difficult to approach a group of 3-4 people chatting. But are they being bitchy and cliquey if they are just chatting, and not actively looking round to ensure no one is alone? Is that what they’re expected to do?

Obviously if you try to talk to someone and they just completely act like you’ve not spoken, then that’s rude. But I don’t get the impression from these threads that that is what’s happening.

This is misogynistic hate speech.

I don't care about the school run or the people on. If you do, you do - but letting some women put you off all women is still your internalised misogyny. We're all different.

I do think there’s an issue with perception and viewpoint a lot of the time. Two people can have the same physical experience but view it very differently.

Person A might get to the school gate and see some pockets of mums standing around chatting. Their thought process for whatever reason (personality, upbringing, past experience) runs along the lines of: ‘I’m standing all on my own here, everyone is in their little cliques, I bet they wouldn’t give me the time of day, i wonder if they’re laughing at me.’

Person B arrives at same time and same scene in front of them and doesn’t think anything of the above, they say hello to a mum or two they are friendly with on way in, then drop child off and leave and it occupies no more head space. They don’t have that internal narrative like an albatross round their neck.

I’d advise being person B and essentially caring less about stuff that you have no control over and that doesn’t need to impact your life. It can be done, but it takes a behavioural shift.

It isn’t just nasty at all, when someone is telling you they’ve had the same problem their whole life, surely there comes a time when they have to look at themselves, as they are the common denominator? Or is it all the other women all the time?

We have a male friend in his forties who has had several disastrous relationships with women and it’s always their fault, not one iota of self reflection ever occurs to him, he’s never responsible for anything.

I don’t like every woman I’ve ever met, but if the OP has a problem every time she encounters other women, I would indeed think that it’s her problem, she is the common denominator.

I would have thought the difference between children, who are part of a school institution for which one of the roles is socialisation, and parents, who are not, is obvious no? Or are you suggesting primary schools run some sort of restorative justice process to make all the parents be friends (horror!).

These threads are always so odd -

"I tried to talk to this woman who blanked me, why is she so mean, what have I done?"

I would just be glad she had showed me who she is so I don't have to waste any energy trying to be a friend. If these women are so "bitchy" why do you care about them anyway?? I wouldn't even bother to think about it!

Are you quite new to the school run? People seemed to loosen up and chat more as the years went on and they'd met each other at birthday parties. I'm naturally pretty shy but do try and make small talk and say hi when I see people again, our kids are talking etc.I think the vast majority of mums actually just want to have a drama free pleasant drop off and pick up. Is there the odd mean mum? Maybe- I can't think of any- but painting it like it is all or the majority of us seems crazy.

God I hate these threads.

Women talking to me = making friends
Women talking to other women without involving me = "Bitchy, cliquey school gate mums".

This is invariably people who struggle to grasp that women have a right to choose friends with their own agency as opposed to having to be nice to everyone just because its what women do. It's honestly pathetic.

Your wording implied that it was very common for men to hate women. Maybe you should have been more explicit about what you meant.

I don’t this it’s internalised misogyny. Misogyny didn’t make girls in school bully you or friends being not nice. I had a similar experience in school and then later in adult years. So most of my friend were males. I want to be friends with those I feel good with, not with back stabbing or passive aggressive people, I don’t care if they happen to be females. So please don’t blame yourself.

Also these threads ultimately reveal far more about the thought process of the person complaining about "bitchy, cliquey mums" than they do about the "bitchy, cliquey mums" themselves.

If you feel huffy about being excluded from an (imagined) clique, it's because you've tried to get yourself into this clique. If you've tried to do this its because you see some social capital value in being friendly with this particular group of mums as opposed to the other stragglers who aren't in the clique.

Why can't you just be open to all comers and willing to make friends, as opposed to thinking you have some God-given right to be part of the "bitchy cliquey mums clique"?

Is it possible that the group of mums you're targeting (who in all likelihood haven't given this much thought) probably wonder why you're targeting them in particular and can sense that you're trying to do a bit of social engineering.

The school run isn’t a club, it’s an errand

@cakeisallyouneed sums it up nicely. I have always worked so have not been able to spend much time chatting. My DC are adults now and I have two or three friends I met when my children were reception age who will be friends for life. I met many more who I never really knew beyond a nod of acknowledgement and a few I will be happy not to see again! The same can be said of the places I’ve worked and other domains in my life. I have always seen other parents at school as people who happen to have given birth at the same time as me and largely that is all we have in common. The emotional invest in our children’s experience of school is high and totally understandable but it seems that, for some, that brings high expectations of having a validating experience themselves.

I do think that some parents behave badly and I observed some unpleasant ostracising of parents and gossiping which made me glad not to be able to spend too much time hanging about at school. That behaviour can’t be expanded to cover every parent who doesn’t respond as we would like though.

You can’t make generalisations about a group of people. Any you do make are, as you seem to be acknowledging @SueSuddio a product of your own experiences, beliefs, expectations etc. I had a pretty horrendous time at school myself and I do recall early on being keen to flit about and not attach myself to any social groups that seemed quite intense, but that’s a product of my own experiences, not a result of their collective behaviour. I was once accused of being unfriendly and ignoring other parents. Apparently they would wave or smile and I would look straight through them. What they didn’t know is that on arrival at school I would park and take off my driving glasses and then walk into school unable to see anyone at any distance and I certainly couldn’t recognise people or respond to smiles or waves but I am actually really friendly if I know someone is there but I could easily have been labelled a nasty female by you OP.

This ⬆️

This happens in every situation where you're "new" doesn't it? Start a new job, join a choir, volunteer for Britain in Bloom, start zumba classes at the gym .... you'll find some people know each other & talk to each other. The majority of people will be approachable & kind. A minority will be utter arseholes. It's just life isn't it?

@SueSuddio I'm quite similar to you and when my DC started school I really tried to be more social at pick up/drop off and for a while I had a few 'mum friends'. My eldest DC is now mid way through high school and my younger DC have a couple of years left of primary. As time went on I found i really didn't have a lot in common with the other mums and in recent years I've completely withdrawn from socialising with other mums.
I think you're right about the cliques, and the bitchiness. Its not all of them but they do tend to stick out the most. My advice would be to keep things light, and don't assume a mum friend is a real friend, mostly what you have in common is your kids, and it might change next week if DC fall out or move circles. I have a friend who's DC lives in the same area as me but her DC go to a different school from mine, and she has definitely been bullied and targeted by other mums and their cliques and her DC has been too.

I think op is being too harsh on herself. She does not have misogyny. She is talking about her experience. It’s a human nature if with a group of people treat you unkindly, you tend to stay away from them. The examples you give are very different to OP’s scenario, she was mistreated first.

Well there was a tv series made about this so it’s relatively widely experienced

I am the least cliquey person you could ever meet (socially inept😂) but perhaps people thought I was in a clique because I spoke briefly with the same people most days who happened to like standing in the same area. There was no deliberate effort to meet and often I was by myself, which was fine. But there definitely were cliques and some of them (not all) were very loud and performative in the way they interacted and definitely weren’t open to new members. Plenty of these groups included men. At least a third, possibly up to half, of the parents/grandparents doing drop off and pick up at my children’s primary school were men and they could be just as cliquey as everyone else.

It’s not shite. Some people have experienced that from childhood and it can be traumatic. You didn’t so you don’t understand.

Is a clique a group of people who know each other? I chat to the other mums I know through our children, activities, hobbies or through other means, it's not purposefully excluding anyone and isn't bitchy or 'drama''.

The bullying experience has understandably stayed with you, and will have coloured your experiences and expectations.
You're an adult now, some people will like you and be friendly, others won't. It's not because they're women, it's because of the situation, usually.
Just try to think of it as an errand that you do, be polite with the good morning etc, but if they don't become your friends, what have you lost? Try not to take it as a rejection.

I’m sure you meant to sound helpfully conversational and not accidentally confrontational. Didn’t you?

"thought I had nothing in common with other women" = "not like other girls"

That is definitely internalised misogyny.

A lot of depressing misogyny her.

I have never been alpha or popular. At school or anywhere. i am not cool or attractive etc. But I eventually found some parents who were lovely and friendly.

Horrid people exist everywhere. Including men. Let’s not perpetuate the ‘bitchy women’ stereotype. Some school mums have been kind, helpful and decent. To me and my kids. Sahms have helped out working mums like me during inset days etc.

Because some people are rude, doesn’t mean the clique culture is the norm everywhere. It means those people are rude. Nothing more or less.