The school run has put me off other women

[SueSuddio]

I used to have a woman problem. In my 20s I mostly sought out male friendship & thought I had nothing in common with other women save for a couple of female friends.

When I got pregnant and had children, my head spun and I felt ashamed of myself with all my internalised mysogyny. I was lucky to make some lovely friends - I gravitate towards women now.

However, I was then introduced to the school run. Tons of women, tons of cliques. And I had a flashback to the bitchy girls at school, the bullies and even my friends who were nice one minute, nasty or ignoring me the next. I'm not getting bullied now, but I'm often getting ignored.

I still think I had internalised mysogyny when I was younger, but I also think it was completely supported by the female nastiness I encountered, echoes of which I see at the school gate.

Hoping it passes but can anyone relate?

Me and DH do the darts and pool league in our local pub and we see this a lot. We meet new people there all the time and it’s a chatty friendly environment in general for both men and women. I think it’s easy to get talking to someone in a pub though, with the booze and the fact you’re often sat in close proximity to/ on a table with strangers. Even if people are already in groups it’s an environment that lends itself to making friends.

I really can’t say that any of the men I’ve known well, hate women. If that’s your experience, then I think you’ve been very unlucky. Or maybe I’ve just been very lucky.

This is what I notice from my dh friends and social life. If one of them introduces another mate into the group, everyone is happy for him to join them on nights out ...whereas I find with women there is often endless private discussions about this new addition and what it means.

I don’t understand how people have all these school gate issues, I drop my kids off and pick them up, I sometimes have a wee chat to various parents, no one is nasty or horrible?

Yes, I can relate to this. I very much gravitated towards the boys at school. I only got involved with girls who were sporty and straightforward. And nothing has changed (now in my 50's). Cliques aren't for me and an all-female friendship group never appealed (with the exception of the netball team in school; those girls were amazing).

I made a couple of very good female friends at the school gates but over the years I heard there was a lot of drama and competition among the school mum groups. Fortunately, I was on the outside of this with 3 or 4 good friends.

You are getting a hard time for the most part here, OP but maybe you genuinely want to understand. And I wonder if it's more about friendship groups than it is about men or women.

Being around a school again brings back memories of our own time at school and if you were bullied and excluded by other girls back then, of course these upsetting memories are going to resurface. I hope in time you can make a couple of nice friends like I did. It is only a few minutes of your day but everybody would like someone to chat to and feeling excluded is difficult at any age. It is human nature to want to fit in and feel embedded into our community.

Yes women and girls can exclude and bully women especially those who don’t conform properly and yes that leads to your brain leaping from “these women hate me” to “all women hate me “ to “i hate all women”

it’s a self protection mechanism as the exclusion is real and is hurtful

unfortunately there are a lot of women who expect conformity - you have to wear the right clothes, do the make up , watch the right TV and heaven help if you own up to being a techhie.- edit to add even if they deny vehemently that they have such expectations

many of those women grow up and out of it or you find your tribe at some point - I haven’t worked out which

but there are a lot of them about - it’s a form of sexism that they are displaying so don’t beat yourself up about any internal mysogeny - they taught it to you

In my ds class the mum's were generally a nice bunch. In my dds class they were an utter horror show...I think I'm a fairly normal confident person but honestly it affected me so much. You were either their absolute bestie for life or shit on their shoe. There was no middle ground. I occasionally see some of them in my local area and it brings it flooding back.

I'll also add I'm not a woman who has male friends...I only have female friends and that is my preference.

Ever heard of shift work?

what a daft commemt

Well if you think about it, it's a weird setup. It's a large collection of adults standing around at random in a space. You have to get to know only one or two, for example at a kids birthday party. So then when you see them, you seek them out and chat on the playground or gate. Is that what you view as a "clique"? I feel like you're framing it wrong.

I think this is a valid question OP and would probably help us work out what's actual nastiness and what's just busy-ness.

If they're talking nastily about you, directly ignoring you and not responding when you say hello, then yes that's horrible.

But if they're just talking to people they know and aren't making effort with you then I think you are maybe projecting a bit. When you've had a bad experience it's easy to do this because you're trying to protect yourself, but I also think it's possible they're trying to get in and out and don't have the time to stop and chat with anyone. Plus, a lot of people will know each other from their kids doing clubs/ being related/ being neighbours or maybe the parents grew up together. So that is an established social network that proceeds you. So if you want to break into that, then you'll probably need to really put yourself out there and actively say hello to everyone and make a point of trying to initiate conversation.

Personally, I really hate small talk and just want to drop and run but I'd hate for that to be perceived as unpleasantness when the reality is I'm shite at mornings and am usually running behind.

So as the pp asked, what is it that they are actually doing?

I get it,

I hate the school run, but only because I struggle with social anxiety and I wonder if I am being judged because I keep to myself.

I get along better with men. I didn't know why until I was diagnosed with ADHD, and probably have some ASD traits as well. It's just my communication style that fits better with more men than women. I've also accepted that there are just very few people that I get along with, and as I've aged I've stopped people-pleasing and don't try so hard to be friends with people that aren't my type.
However I wouldn't rule out a whole gender just because you get along better with men. You just haven't found your people yet. There are other mums out there that you'll meet and get along with. It just takes time.

It's so tiresome isn't it. Anyone can come and speak to me I would love to make more mum friends but I have the ones I have and naturally we chat! The same people stand alone or on their phone and don't make any effort (which is absolutely fine they don't have to! its not for everyone!) but you can't complain of bitchiness unless you actively make the effort to join in and are somehow shunned by an entire group of mums which I realllly cant see happening!

I gave up the September day I joined a circle of women, all of whose DC had been to play in my garden during the summer, cheerfully asked "did everyone have a good summer?" and was met by stony silence from all of them.

It’s ok you think that. I’ve met lots of wonderful men. I’m married to one, my family has them.

I was talking in general. You don’t need to agree or understand.

You do realise that pretty much everyone has an awkward or difficult experience in a group don't you? And that the reason people end up with long term friends is that they power through and get over it? Do you really believe there are people who never say the wrong thing, always get met with smiles and laughter, never have a weird moment?

Those on the inside can’t see it can they? If you haven’t experienced it most people haven’t got a clue.

you say hello and soon enough they turn their back on you. Or move the conversation to stuff you have no chance of joining in with. Laugh at you for the normal things you do . Catch the eye of their friend when you own up to your work. Pull a face at you. You know when you are being pushed away and disliked and it’s usually the ones who are slightly different - ND, or different class or accent , probably the same with race and disability. Much less likely to find acceptance in the mums group. Just how it is.Edit - it’s not a one off it’s a repeated pattern. Unless you happen to find another excluded person

That wasn't awkward, it was downright rude. And it wasn't my first attempt.

I don't think this at all. Loads of men have the same mates from school and noone else penetrates the group.

Me too

People are so strange aren't they? Why would you not respond to this? I remember going to one of those reading mornings in my dds class... another mum was there and we were sitting on the same table, I said good morning, she looked at me and then totally blanked me and didn't respond . Another women I knew would chat but she'd be looking over your shoulder in case someone better came along...then she'd walk off to speak to them mid sentence

To me that comes across as someone with not-great social skills who struggles to talk to someone they don't know. I wouldn't assume they hate me or are an awful person, I'd assume they are trying to manage the situation and are not very good at it.

Yes...so true 😅 most people are busy with their own lives......

Do you have any insight into what was going on?

Having a child the same age in the same classroom in the same school so the same hw, the same teacher is quite a lot to have in common with someone.
But not enough to warrant a nod or a smile