About Gender neutral loo

[paulhollywoodshairgel]

I was in a museum today and my daughter (15) left me to go to the loo. She then waved me over.. she said to me.. I’d rather not use the gender neutral loo. I said that’s fine and sent her down a level to the ladies. A woman the approached me and preceded to tell me off for not encouraging my daughter to use the GN loo. How she has a trans child and how are they ever going to feel accepted with people like me around. I’m ND and I always second guess myself 10000 times a day. I wasn’t in the wrong was I?? I just said ok go and use the other separate loo. Surely my child can pee wherever she feels comfortable??!! I hate conflict so I just said ok and walked off!

professional endocrinologists, psychologists and medics don’t have a consensus on these issues

What is your expertise here?

Areas of broad consensus:

Sex is a complex, multidimensional variable - chromosomes, internal reproductive structures, external genitalia, hormones, "gender" (language here is contested) all form part of sex development. These different components all have minority variations. Many of these are either naturally fluctuating or can be altered through medical treatments/ technologies, with the exception of chromosomes which are fixed (in the context of current technologies). Sex is assigned/ observed/ registered (whatever language you chose - language is contested) at birth, usually based on simple observation of genitals. For the overwhelming majority of people genitals will align with all other aspects of sex/ gender development and therefore this is uncomplicated.

"Gender" (whatever word is used - the language is contested) is a person's cognitive/ psychological recognition/ awareness/ perception/ understanding of their sex. Gender identity is something that almost all people possess, and is typically acquired during early childhood as a normal part of development. The overwhelming majority of people develop this in alignment with their chromosomes/ genitals (in the same way that all other aspects of a person's sex align). A small minority of people don't. We don't know why this happens, but we do know it happens. It is likely to be the result of a complex interplay of biological/ environmental/ psychological/ social/ (neuro-)developmental factors - although the different weighting that people give to these different factors is contested.

Why and however it occurs, gender incongruence (where gender does not align with registered sex) is not trivial/ superficial, it is a profound, pervasive, persistent, visceral psychological experience. It can be profoundly psychologically distressing / disorienting to the person when it is repressed/ denied/ contradicted etc. This can lead to depression, anxiety and sometimes even psychosis or suicide. It is highly resistant to change, and attempts to do so can be profoundly harmful. Social and medical transition on the other hand can alleviate distress.

Being trans is not wrong. It is not harmful. it does not make someone a pervert or a predator. it's a natural axis of human diversity, and has existed throughout history and across cultures. Most people are not trans, but a small minority of people are. It is not in itself a mental illness, although it can result in profound psychic distress where, as above, trans experience is repressed and denied. Trans people can live health, fulfilled, happy lives with the right support in place.

These are the main ones, but no doubt I have missed others out.

🎉🎉 Yeah, roll up, roll up, it’s my favourite Operation Let Them Speak thread again.

”Now you say that if you’re found alone & haven’t been breathing for 2 weeks then you’re dead. You just don’t understand do you, it’s so exhausting. Because when you say dead that’s just your narrow, bigoted view of death, that you’re rights hoarding to the detriment of a very vulnerable group of people.

Death is a multidimensional complex spectrum, words are very difficult & you have to remember essence, feelings & stuff. A doctor might say He’s dead, based upon observations. But what observations? There are so many layers, just because he’s a medical professional what about all the papers on the internet that disagree? What about feelings, eh?

And I’ve done my research. I’ve spoken to near deathers, the resurrected, great aunt Suzy through that medium on Brighton pier. They have their own internal comprehension of death. Who are you lot to argue with them? Can you imagine how marginalised they feel? ………. (x 400 pages)

Oh, and did I mention that women and girls have no right to tell men (whoops, need to remember to type ‘trans women’ because that’s the Abracadabra word) to stay out of their female only space? “

🎶 Let’s go round again🎶
Actually let’s not.

And has agreed previously that sex is binary.

Tandora is indeed fooling no one.

Tandora doesn't believe in anything except what boils down to male supremacist rights.

What is your expertise here?

What's yours? You keep telling us it's outing, but demand someone else tell you theirs. You've gotta stop Tandora, I'm going to do myself an injury from laughing so much😂😂😂

Something general will do - like I am a scientist/ have a PhD directly in this area. I'm just interested what this poster's foundation is for the claims she is making. usually it's 'i've read it on social media/ watched it on youtube'

Complete nutjob , I wouldn't of let her get away with that (personally)

To be fair, Tandora did remember to type She/her when they asked me why it was relevant to describe Dr Theodore Upton as a 6ft plus ex rugby player.

I guess even proficient gaslighters are occasionally pulled up short by millennia of evolution that enables us to sex each other in a few seconds. If it’s a man changing out of his clothes in a female locker room it’s probably even quicker, aided by the fight or flight response. Obviously as women flight is our only option.

What kind of scientist? A PhD in what? It really can't be that niche as to be outing, are you considered an expert in your field? The only person in your field of study? 😂

because if people see them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

Why? From what you say no one can tell what someone else's sex is, and trans identifying men pass. In addition other people will also be using the mixed sex toilets, trans allies, people who just don't care what toilets they use, trans identifying females... so why would trans identifying males be outed by using them too? I don't understand, please help me understand.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

No actually I would take actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying males very seriously. I may be a feminist, but I'm also (opposite to what you believe) not actually prejudiced or phobic about trans identifying men at all. I just don't believe it happens, but again opposite to what you believe, I am open to being proved wrong.
You could back up what you say by showing us evidence of instances where trans identifying men have been either subjected to physical violence or where they have been unlawfully discriminated against. If it has happened you'd think it would be big news like I said earlier. There would be news articles about it in multiple papers, police reports would have been made, hopefully arrests, tribunals in court etc. There would be evidence of it happening, and I would imagine that an ally like you would be able to find it to support the TRA claim that trans identifying people are discriminated and harmed all the time.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

Are they though? I've heard of people saying this but where are they going that's such a utopia? And again show your working as it were, proof of this discrimination please?

This has got to be the 7th or 8th time now I've reposted the above questions to you.

Are you able to prove you aren't a liar, liar pants on fire? 😂If you can't provide the evidence then the conclusion you leave us all to come to is that you are simply a liar spreading propaganda.

I got a certificate for the 25 metre breast stroke when I was 8, but I doubt I’ll be advising the GB Olympic swimming team on tactics.

So we have to believe you self proclaimed expertise but also believe that everyone who disagrees with you is a brainless, brainwashed reactionary bigot? Even the mothers of transitioners?

If the threads on the feminism board of Mumsnet have taught me anything it's that there are lots of brilliant, bright, well informed, qualified, intelligent, experienced woman out there who as a collective can produce an actual expert on pretty much any topic you can think of that have had enough of this unevidenced, pseudoscientific bunkum to last several life times.

Dupe

I went to a theatre/bar type place last week and was shocked that they had changed the toilets to gender neutral , with urinals in them! What the hell? There was no clear signage of an alternative elsewhere.

It's easy to misgender someone. This isn't some deep, dark, dirty secret, terrible sin. Everyone acknowledges this. How we gender someone depends on a variety of immediate observations we make in a given situational context.

No you don't "have to believe me". I have no control over what you believe.

It's easy to misgender someone

Why might that be? 🤔

Well mostly because of gender stereotypes. For example, people misgender my baby girl all the time because her hair hasn't grown yet and she's often wearing trousers and clothes other than pink.

And why isn't it Transphobia when Tandora does it like what it is when we do it?

It's not transphobic to accidentally misgender someone. It's transphobic to repeatedly, insistently misgender someone on purpose.

🎵 She's a PHD in 'I told you so', You've a knighthood in 'I'm not listening'. 🎶

Today's earworm thanks to Tandora.

You didn't 'misgender' a baby thought, did you?

You misgendered an adult. Why was that do you think? You know how Dr Upton identifies, how did you make that mistake?

Why does correctly sex-ing a person mean you have an irrational fear of them? If you don’t believe in gender identity you can’t misgender them can you.

For the last time.

Yes. You. Can. That. is. what. STATISTICS. and. DATA. Is. For.

And. Please. Look. Up. Per. Capita.

Yes it is. At least have the guts to admit it and stop backtracking.

Women flee to the ladies to escape males. It is completely discriminatory to remove that space from females. Not least the fact that some women may be in a state of semi undress (ie changing to go clubbing or somewhere, washing baby sick out of blouse), having a miscarriage etc. Our foremother feminists FOUGHT for these spaces, and it is purposely 'discriminatory' because for safety reasons it MUST BE.

Males are completely safe in facilities for the own sex. I understand that you totally fail to see or understand the impact of these policies on female people, but that is due to a total lack of insight, understanding or empathy on your part. I’ve tried to explain it to you but you are either unwilling or incapable of getting it so I’m not sure what more there is to say.

No you can't generalise from the prison pop to the larger population, IT'S NOT A REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE.
No idea why you are banging on about 'per capita' 😂