About Gender neutral loo

[paulhollywoodshairgel]

I was in a museum today and my daughter (15) left me to go to the loo. She then waved me over.. she said to me.. I’d rather not use the gender neutral loo. I said that’s fine and sent her down a level to the ladies. A woman the approached me and preceded to tell me off for not encouraging my daughter to use the GN loo. How she has a trans child and how are they ever going to feel accepted with people like me around. I’m ND and I always second guess myself 10000 times a day. I wasn’t in the wrong was I?? I just said ok go and use the other separate loo. Surely my child can pee wherever she feels comfortable??!! I hate conflict so I just said ok and walked off!

But we don’t agree on the basics. And women’s spaces are for women, not men, however those men feel.

Interesting (edited from Really?)

Yes really, I said so much earlier why I refuse to use compelled language and why it would harm me to do so.

We need to agree the basics first

This is newspeak for "I want to control the conversation and your language or I won't engage in the discussion", so I agree we need a shared understanding of the language we both are using but again I refuse to use your preferred language.

before we can even begin to talk about how to arrange policy in a non-discriminatory way.

This is your new addition to our current conversation and does not relate to anything I specified. I am not talking about or asking how to arrange policy in a non-discriminatory way, I am asking you to show us any evidence you have to support your claims of unlawful discrimination or physical violence against trans identifying males.

I have now asked you this, what five-six? times in total, and must repeat again that I am left to conclude that you refuse to answer them because you can't provide the evidence to back up your claims.

You really can't answer the questions I've asked or find any evidence to support your claims can you Tandora, it's so obvious that's why you refuse to answer, it's hilarious! 😂😂😂

because if people see them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

Why? From what you say no one can tell what someone else's sex is, and trans identifying men pass. In addition other people will also be using the mixed sex toilets, trans allies, people who just don't care what toilets they use, trans identifying females... so why would trans identifying males be outed by using them too? I don't understand, please help me understand.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

No actually I would take actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying males very seriously. I may be a feminist, but I'm also (opposite to what you believe) not actually prejudiced or phobic about trans identifying men at all. I just don't believe it happens, but again opposite to what you believe, I am open to being proved wrong.
You could back up what you say by showing us evidence of instances where trans identifying men have been either subjected to physical violence or where they have been unlawfully discriminated against. If it has happened you'd think it would be big news like I said earlier. There would be news articles about it in multiple papers, police reports would have been made, hopefully arrests, tribunals in court etc. There would be evidence of it happening, and I would imagine that an ally like you would be able to find it to support the TRA claim that trans identifying people are discriminated and harmed all the time.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

Are they though? I've heard of people saying this but where are they going that's such a utopia? And again show your working as it were, proof of this discrimination please?

No idea what this means sorry.

But we don’t agree on the basics

Exactly. That's the point.

compelled language makes me laugh out loud every time. Imagine responding to an Asian person who asked you not to use the 'p' word that you won't accept 'compelled language'. Or a colleague who told you their name - 'no I won't accept 'compelled language', therefor I will call you Bob'. 😂

No idea?

Trans people disagree with each other radically on what “being trans is and how it affects a person”.

Assumptions behind your reasoning:
Observation of sex at birth is always correct.
Sex is a singular, fixed / immutable thing.
”what goes on in someone’s head” is not real/ material and fundamentally less significant than “what goes on in someone’s body”.
Body and mind are fundamentally distinct / separable things.
Accepting trans people for who they say they are requires everyone else to give up their “dignity”.
Accepting trans people for who they say they are creates an unfair society.
Let’s go through these assumptions one by one. Where did they come from? How did you arrive at them? What basis do you have for believing they are true?
I put to you that every single one of them is either wholly or at least partially wrong. At best they are all significant over simplifications.

Back to your list from yesterday @Tandora I didn't have the chance to address it at the time as I was doing lots of unsexy, uncopied by men who think they are women womaning and looking after an elderly relative.

Let's look first at simplification - we simplify things all the time, it doesn't make them wrong.

It's simplification to say the world is round or the sky is blue. It doesn't mean I don't know or understand that the world is actually an oblate spheroid or that I have never seen a sky turn red at sunset.

So

1. Observation of sex at birth is always correct.

We are perfectly aware that in a tiny (and increasingly small thanks to further tests now being carried out if sex appears ambiguous at birth) number of people are incorrectly sexed at birth. But these people have DSDs if not detected beforehand almost all will become obvious at puberty (or apparent lack there of). But despite you claims otherwise there is not one jot of evidence that transness is a DSD.

2)Sex is a singular, fixed / immutable thing.
Again a simplification in that we know some biological classifications have the ability to change sex or reproduce parthenogenetically but they are irrelevant when discussing humans because there is not one single example ever of a human changing from one sex to the other (and there are only two - if you wish to dispute that you are going to have to provide actual evidence not just unevidenced waffle). But it is good enough for for Baron Winston so it's good enough for me, I wouldn't be bold enough to claim to know more than an actual bono fide expert.

3. what goes on in someone’s head” is not real/ material and fundamentally less significant than “what goes on in someone’s body

This appears to be your opinion rather than an actual fact, simplified or otherwise. Someone thoughts and/or feelings are not measurable. We have no way of knowing what someone else thinks or feels. We can however (in almost all cases despite a handful of exceptions, regardless of modification etc etc) tell is someone is male or female and this is what is relevant when it comes to changing rooms, to sport etc the actual physical reality of whether a body is form along the path to produce sperm or the path to produce eggs.

4. Body and mind are fundamentally distinct / separable things.

Umm no, no-one thinks this. The mind is part of the body, however, if someone with a male body thinks they are female this is different to them being female because their maleness is actually coded into every cell of their body.

I don't have time.at the moment to address the last two in depth but they are basically misrepresentations anyway. I will come back to them later if I have the time.

@Tandora I'd also love to see your answer to @Namelessnelly's question that you've conveniently ignored. Remember you're supposed to be explaining how this is of benefit to women, not the trans identifying males you say are women.

Namelessnelly · Today 07:51
@Tandora you seem very keen to say letting males in female spaces benefits women. How? How does letting a male into my female single sex space benefit me? It will cause me discomfort and upset but you claim it will benefit me. How?

Nah there are significant, fundamental areas of consensus on what being trans is and how it affects a person.

No, there really aren’t.

Still can't answer then? 😂

So it's clearly just pure lies and propaganda that you're spreading when you say that trans identified males are the most vulnerable, or the most oppressed. You have zero evidence to show they are in any more danger than any other group of GNC males, and can show no actual evidence of unlawful discrimination 😂

You've had so many opportunities to prove me wrong but I knew you couldn't do it! You make me laugh so much😂😂😂

because if people see them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

Why? From what you say no one can tell what someone else's sex is, and trans identifying men pass. In addition other people will also be using the mixed sex toilets, trans allies, people who just don't care what toilets they use, trans identifying females... so why would trans identifying males be outed by using them too? I don't understand, please help me understand.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

No actually I would take actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying males very seriously. I may be a feminist, but I'm also (opposite to what you believe) not actually prejudiced or phobic about trans identifying men at all. I just don't believe it happens, but again opposite to what you believe, I am open to being proved wrong.
You could back up what you say by showing us evidence of instances where trans identifying men have been either subjected to physical violence or where they have been unlawfully discriminated against. If it has happened you'd think it would be big news like I said earlier. There would be news articles about it in multiple papers, police reports would have been made, hopefully arrests, tribunals in court etc. There would be evidence of it happening, and I would imagine that an ally like you would be able to find it to support the TRA claim that trans identifying people are discriminated and harmed all the time.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

Are they though? I've heard of people saying this but where are they going that's such a utopia? And again show your working as it were, proof of this discrimination please?

I quoted the wrong post, it should have been this one I was replying to.

Still can't answer then? 😂

So it's clearly just pure lies and propaganda that you're spreading when you say that trans identified males are the most vulnerable, or the most oppressed. You have zero evidence to show they are in any more danger than any other group of GNC males, and can show no actual evidence of unlawful discrimination 😂

You've had so many opportunities to prove me wrong but I knew you couldn't do it! You make me laugh so much😂😂😂

because if people see them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

Why? From what you say no one can tell what someone else's sex is, and trans identifying men pass. In addition other people will also be using the mixed sex toilets, trans allies, people who just don't care what toilets they use, trans identifying females... so why would trans identifying males be outed by using them too? I don't understand, please help me understand.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

No actually I would take actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying males very seriously. I may be a feminist, but I'm also (opposite to what you believe) not actually prejudiced or phobic about trans identifying men at all. I just don't believe it happens, but again opposite to what you believe, I am open to being proved wrong.
You could back up what you say by showing us evidence of instances where trans identifying men have been either subjected to physical violence or where they have been unlawfully discriminated against. If it has happened you'd think it would be big news like I said earlier. There would be news articles about it in multiple papers, police reports would have been made, hopefully arrests, tribunals in court etc. There would be evidence of it happening, and I would imagine that an ally like you would be able to find it to support the TRA claim that trans identifying people are discriminated and harmed all the time.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

Are they though? I've heard of people saying this but where are they going that's such a utopia? And again show your working as it were, proof of this discrimination please?

What are they?

I mean - there really are.

But this is yet another thing you refuse to accept.

You dismiss this as quickly as you dismiss the thought that there is almost universal consensus in the trans community that the use of language such as "trans identified men" is totally inappropriate and discriminatory.

As I said, not much further we can go from here is there?

We've been over this many times @TheKeatingFive and then you pop up on every thread with this faux naive pose that you have never seen me explain what being trans is (and how it affects a person).

As I said, not much further we can go from here is there?

You could try to prove you aren't just a bold faced liar 😂

You could show the evidence to back up your claims as per my last few posts? I'm not copying it in again because it takes up so much space, you can scroll up and find it.

Bold faced liar?

Ok.

Can you sketch out some of these consensus areas? Because professional endocrinologists, psychologists and medics don’t have a consensus on these issues, and activists certainly don’t (I’m sure you’re aware of the differences between transmedicalists and other activists - eg truscum/tucute and so on). Many things you habitually claim are “consensus” in your posts across many threads are highly debated within the “trans community” and certainly represent no consensus outside of it.

I accidentally mangled that aphorism 😂I meant to say bare faced liar but I was also thinking you are bold with it and typed that word instead. What a numpty 😂

CohensDiamondTeeth

It took me about six weeks and numerous posts across numerous threads to get Tandora to answer a very simple question so if you really want an answer (which will boil down to women don't matter, the feelings of men who think they are women are way more important than pesky females) you will need to be tenacious but it probably isn't worth the effort. Tandora has told us when she eventually answered my question that in her opinion women have no right to privacy, dignity, safety etc. because the feelings of transwomen are paramount.

Not going to lie Tandora, I've seen a lot of word salad from you. Never any kind of workable definition that doesn't fall apart on questioning though.

But here you are, telling us there are significant, fundamental areas of consensus. Cool - so what are they?

Ha ha ha! I was just correcting myself, I'm sure that gave your huge intellect a sexy little shiver of superiority for a moment though 😂If you want to be an intellectual snob over my posts, I could find a lot more to pick at than a single error in quoting a common aphorism, you're even terrible at that! 😂😂😂

You keep avoiding my questions and giving evidence to back up your claims, proving once again that you have none, it must not happen then, it must be propaganda and you must be a bare faced liar 😂And bold with it 😂😂😂

I think a few of us have been there, I know I have had to do this too in the past.

I sometimes feel it is worth it, we all know Tandora will put men over and above women every time, but it's useful to let lurkers see what the TRA arguments are, and how quickly they fall apart with even a little thought applied.

I've also laughed a lot in the last few posts, at my own mistake too but mostly at Tandora's ridiculous statements and running away from the questions Tandora finds it hard to give a sensible answer to😂

Tandora confused Dr Upton and Sandie Peggie on one of the related threads (so hard to tell women apart isn't it? They are all just heels lipstick and long hair right? 😉)

So perhaps this one is more up her street:

'Let him who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her'

Tandora called Dr Upton ‘he’. Tandora is fooling no one.