About Gender neutral loo

[paulhollywoodshairgel]

I was in a museum today and my daughter (15) left me to go to the loo. She then waved me over.. she said to me.. I’d rather not use the gender neutral loo. I said that’s fine and sent her down a level to the ladies. A woman the approached me and preceded to tell me off for not encouraging my daughter to use the GN loo. How she has a trans child and how are they ever going to feel accepted with people like me around. I’m ND and I always second guess myself 10000 times a day. I wasn’t in the wrong was I?? I just said ok go and use the other separate loo. Surely my child can pee wherever she feels comfortable??!! I hate conflict so I just said ok and walked off!

This has always been a thing btw. 'Butch' women have been reporting these kinds of incidents for decades.

But things are only getting worse. We can see that when people talk about DU , for example, as being a "6ft, rugby player", in reference to why SP was justified in harassing her in the changer.

In terms of safety - would you as an individual woman walk into communal men's toilet and feel comfortable, safe?

Well way back in the day I used the men's on several occasions because the queue for the ladies was round the block and I was in places where mens facilities out numbered women's and hadn't been update from a time when very few women went to those places but the numbers had increased greatly.

Now despite me being a female, with female strength absolutely nothing happened to me so if a person with male strength went in there the odd are nothing would happen to them either.

Based on reason, logic, insight, instead of irrational phobia/ prejudice against a minority group

Reason, logic, insight 😂 irrational phobia/prejudice against a minority group? What men? That's not a phobia or a prejudice and I hate to tell you this but they're not generally considered a minority group.

FYI it's not against the law to use any toilet.

It is if a trans identified male enters a female single sex toilet. The SC judgement has clarified that "sex" means biological sex. We've done this many, many times already and you are still repeating misinformation.

outing for a trans person to be singled out to use mixed sex.

How exactly are mixed sex facilities outing for trans identified people?

In terms of safety - would you as an individual woman walk into communal men's toilet and feel comfortable, safe? This is exactly how it would feel to a trans women.

Why would I use the men's toilets in the first place? A trans identified male couldn't get pregnant if they were raped so their risks from other men are not the same as the risks faced by women on that count alone.

And once again I'm asking you to show me actual evidence that trans identifying men have been physically harmed in any men's single sex space by other men, and I've asked you to not include reports of violence visited on those poor male prostitutes in Brazil because that isn't the same thing at all.

Nontrans women 🙄Women then, but to you a not just a subset of woman but also now a subset of trans 🙄again.

In that case why don't you answer @Namelessnelly's question?

Namelessnelly · Today 07:51
@Tandora you seem very keen to say letting males in female spaces benefits women. How? How does letting a male into my female single sex space benefit me? It will cause me discomfort and upset but you claim it will benefit me. How?

Yes chances are that nothing would happen to them, of course. But they would feel just the same as any woman would feel if they were the only women around forced to use the men's facilities - humiliated, uncomfortable, unsafe. But if you would feel comfortable with this - more power to you! In that case no idea why you are on here so passionately advocating for the importance of single sex spaces lol.

It's. not. against, the, law, for. a. trans. person. to. use. the. women's. toilet.

The SC judgement is about the obligations on service providers to comply with equalities legislation (an area of civil law).

Please educated yourself.

I don't have time for this, it's ridiculous and exhausting.

It's not even 9am and I'm out of eyerolls already!

The first account is of a man abusing a GNC woman and I believe it happened. This is a man abusing a woman though Tandora, this is just misogyny. Horrible, upsetting, shouldn't happen stuff but still the tale as old as time, man abuses women stuff. That guy who spat on this woman wasn't some GC righteous vigilante, he was just a woman hating prick who would have found any excuse to abuse a woman.

The second is Jolyon Maugham's wife who's account of what apparently happened to her is highly suspect. She is a very feminine looking woman to start with, and JM had tweeted wondering if this sort of thing would happen. Then not long after, shock surprise! What a coincidence it "happened", and to his wife no less! I don't believe it for a second!

Edited to add I'd rather be asked if I belong there by other women than allow an open door policy to any man who self id's into our previously single sex spaces. After the TRAs calm the fuck down and stop trying to invade our single sex spaces, any women politely challenges other woman scenarios will go back to being rarities again.

They’re not women, Tandora. They are men and the male space is the one indicated for them. Or alternatively they can find or campaign for third mixed sex single use facilities.

Why would a male be upset at using male facilities? So you’d rather women be upset and humiliated by having to share single sex facilities with males. Well Thankyou for answering my question on whose feelings you would prioritise. I thing when you said you were a great advocate for women’s rights safety and donut and comfort you weren’t taking about females were you.

Why would a male be upset at using male facilities?

Right. As above. I understand that you refuse to accept, acknowledge, understand the experience of trans women.
You are either unwilling or incapable of this. I've tried to explain many times in many ways but you are not listening. So there's really nothing else to say.

It is the reality, and will remain the reality, whether you acknowledge it or not.

No trans woman (unless they are still closeted) is going to use the men's facilities, any more than I (a cis woman) would. All that will happen is they will have nowhere they feel comfortable to go to the loo. This includes kids in school.

@Tandora

How are mixed sex facilities outing for trans identified people?

Can you show any actual evidence that trans identifying men have been physically harmed or unlawfully discriminated against here in the UK?

because if people seem them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

because if people see them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

See not seem

Because it was nearly 40 years ago and I was young and foolish and self assured. But the passing years have seen me learn from my experiences and I would never set foot in the men's now, largely because I now believe that I was invading a space I shouldn't have been in and compromising male privacy and dignity.

Fear it one of many reasons for keeping men out of women's spaces but it isn't the only one.

I had one of my miscarriages in a public toilet, I have removed my top to wash off breast milk and/or baby sick in public toilets, my friend had her first epileptic seizure in a public toilet another friend started to feel unwell and headed to the restaurant toilet where she temporarily lost her eyesight (dodgy seafood). Women are deserving of a space to do these things away from the male gaze regardless of how the male in question sees themself.

because if people see them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

Why? From what you say no one can tell what someone else's sex is, and trans identifying men pass. In addition other people will also be using the mixed sex toilets, trans allies, people who just don't care what toilets they use, trans identifying females... so why would trans identifying males be outed by using them too? I don't understand, please help me understand.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

No actually I would take actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying males very seriously. I may be a feminist, but I'm also (opposite to what you believe) not actually prejudiced or phobic about trans identifying men at all. I just don't believe it happens, but again opposite to what you believe, I am open to being proved wrong.

You could back up what you say by showing us evidence of instances where trans identifying men have been either subjected to physical violence or where they have been unlawfully discriminated against. If it has happened you'd think it would be big news like I said earlier. There would be news articles about it in multiple papers, police reports would have been made, hopefully arrests, tribunals in court etc. There would be evidence of it happening, and I would imagine that an ally like you would be able to find it to support the TRA claim that trans identifying people are discriminated and harmed all the time.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

Are they though? I've heard of people saying this but where are they going that's such a utopia? And again show your working as it were, proof of this discrimination please?

And state sanctioned discrimination 🙄The reasserting of women's lawful rights you mean?

Ah right, where are they going that is so much better for trans identifying people than the U.K.? Whatever you think of the legal framework, there are few places in the world as generally tolerant and liberal in practice as the U.K. Ireland may have self-ID laws, but in most places is still on average a more traditional and homogenous culture, with more socially rigid gender norms and expectations than most of the U.K. Ditto many southern European countries. Even Germany, which has more pro-trans legislation and in which clothing in particular is much less coded as “feminine” vs “masculine”, is in many areas of the country a more socially and religiously conservative culture than the U.K.

Second, the reality is that almost no trans people “pass” in person, so why would it take walking across a building to a gender neutral loo to make others twig that they were trans? I can assure you that despite what young activists like to claim online, it’s really really difficult to hide biological sex completely, and in most cases it’s very obvious. People might be polite and not mention it, but that doesn’t mean they don’t notice. I think many young trans people go about assuming that they are “stealth”, when they are honestly a little bit deluded about this.

im not prejudiced or phobic about trans identifying men at all

the use of the language of “trans identifying men” is deeply discriminatory/ transphobic. The fact that you use this language and refuse to accept it is discriminatory/ hurtful is itself sufficient demonstration of your prejudice.

@Miriabelle

That is your opinion. I say you're wrong there but this isn't moving the conversation forward really is it? How about as you have said in another thread, you play the ball not the player and answer the meat of my post instead of taking umbrage at my use of language?

because if people see them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

Why? From what you say no one can tell what someone else's sex is, and trans identifying men pass. In addition other people will also be using the mixed sex toilets, trans allies, people who just don't care what toilets they use, trans identifying females... so why would trans identifying males be outed by using them too? I don't understand, please help me understand.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

No actually I would take actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying males very seriously. I may be a feminist, but I'm also (opposite to what you believe) not actually prejudiced or phobic about trans identifying men at all. I just don't believe it happens, but again opposite to what you believe, I am open to being proved wrong.
You could back up what you say by showing us evidence of instances where trans identifying men have been either subjected to physical violence or where they have been unlawfully discriminated against. If it has happened you'd think it would be big news like I said earlier. There would be news articles about it in multiple papers, police reports would have been made, hopefully arrests, tribunals in court etc. There would be evidence of it happening, and I would imagine that an ally like you would be able to find it to support the TRA claim that trans identifying people are discriminated and harmed all the time.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

Are they though? I've heard of people saying this but where are they going that's such a utopia? And again show your working as it were, proof of this discrimination please?

That is your opinion.

And the opinion of almost all trans people. Food for thought eh?

How about as you have said in another thread, you play the ball not the player and answer the meat of my post instead of taking umbrage at my use of language?

I'm not personally attacking you, I'm speaking honestly about the nature of this conversation between you and I. There are fundamental aspects of being trans/ trans experience that you refuse to accept - this is sufficiently demonstrated by your use of language, which refuses/ denies/ trivialises/ demeans trans experience. It's impossible to have a conversation about the impact of policy on trans people when that is where you are.

I see this didn’t get answered. Or how can one tell the difference between a trans woman aka a real woman in Tandora’s world, from a gender nonconforming male who merely likes to wear heels, dresses and make up?

Please do tell.

Food for thought eh?

Not really.

I'm not personally attacking you

I didn't say you were, I said you were taking umbrage at my language. I'll add that you are using that as an excuse not to answer the question as proven by this extended side bar about my use of trans identifying male.

It's impossible to have a conversation about the impact of policy on trans people when that is where you are.

So you are refusing to answer the below questions. This is the fourth time I've asked the first two questions, and the third time I've asked the last question.

I am left to conclude that you refuse to answer them because you can't provide the evidence to back up your claims. I am not surprised at all.

because if people see them eg walking across a complex/ building just to do this, it’s not that difficult to put two and two together as to why.

Why? From what you say no one can tell what someone else's sex is, and trans identifying men pass. In addition other people will also be using the mixed sex toilets, trans allies, people who just don't care what toilets they use, trans identifying females... so why would trans identifying males be outed by using them too? I don't understand, please help me understand.

regarding your second point- how can I prove this to you when you refuse to acknowledge the realities of being trans or of trans experience? It’s all a trivial nonsense to you.

No actually I would take actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying males very seriously. I may be a feminist, but I'm also (opposite to what you believe) not actually prejudiced or phobic about trans identifying men at all. I just don't believe it happens, but again opposite to what you believe, I am open to being proved wrong.
You could back up what you say by showing us evidence of instances where trans identifying men have been either subjected to physical violence or where they have been unlawfully discriminated against. If it has happened you'd think it would be big news like I said earlier. There would be news articles about it in multiple papers, police reports would have been made, hopefully arrests, tribunals in court etc. There would be evidence of it happening, and I would imagine that an ally like you would be able to find it to support the TRA claim that trans identifying people are discriminated and harmed all the time.

there are people , families, leaving the country right now because of the (increasingly state sanctioned) discrimination against trans people in this country .

Are they though? I've heard of people saying this but where are they going that's such a utopia? And again show your working as it were, proof of this discrimination please?

No you’re not in the wrong. Your daughter isn’t a support human for random strangers. She should do whatever makes her feel safe and comfortable.

Not really.

Interesting.

As for the rest -

As above, there are fundamental aspects of being trans/ trans experience that you refuse to accept. It's impossible to have a conversation about the impact of policy on trans people when that is where you are.

In fact I've tried to do this already, but it is futile. People just keep saying things like "why would it be a problem for a male to use the men's toilet, or 'most trans people don't pass anyway'. These are assumptions rooted in lack of understanding/ insight and prejudice. But when you start from these assumptions, of course you can't see the impact of policy.

We need to agree the basics first, which is what being trans is and how it affects a person, before we can even begin to talk about how to arrange policy in a non-discriminatory way.

This is obvious and would apply to any category of diversity/ difference.

But trans people can’t decide what “being trans is” and “how it affects a person”. So why do you think you can?