About Gender neutral loo

[paulhollywoodshairgel]

I was in a museum today and my daughter (15) left me to go to the loo. She then waved me over.. she said to me.. I’d rather not use the gender neutral loo. I said that’s fine and sent her down a level to the ladies. A woman the approached me and preceded to tell me off for not encouraging my daughter to use the GN loo. How she has a trans child and how are they ever going to feel accepted with people like me around. I’m ND and I always second guess myself 10000 times a day. I wasn’t in the wrong was I?? I just said ok go and use the other separate loo. Surely my child can pee wherever she feels comfortable??!! I hate conflict so I just said ok and walked off!

for the last time:

you. Cannot. Take. Prison. Statistics. And. Make. Inferences. To. A. General. Population.

if you believe this you will end up with some very racist conclusions among other things.

The whole thread where you were adamant no one would be able to know their sex as it was too complicated. That thread. I can post it if you like. are you now saying that there are two sexes, and everyone can recognise them at a glance? You said there was no way of knowing anyone’s sex and that was why males with a trans identity should be allowed in female spaces. You’ve even dragged those with DSD into it.
you never answered my question though. You said you were a great advocate for women’s safety and dignity, and I asked if a male with a trans identity wanted to access a female only space for his safety and dignity but a woman wanted that space as single sex for her comfort and dignity, in your opinion who should be able to use the space?

No it’s not anything like what I am saying.

I never said “no one could know their sex”. Seriously the level of comprehension is in the gutter

X is complicated and multidimensional does not equal you can’t know about it.

Things don’t have to be binary in order for us to identify them 🤣🤣.

The whole of life is not binary.

Again- let’s take the simple example of colours- colours are not binary: we can still identify blue things. Sometime things are ambiguous whether we might call them green or blue for example or look different in different lights. Sometimes people might disagree about their perceptions of a colour. It doesn’t follow that no one can ever tell what colour something is.

Truly exhausting. I don’t even know why I’m bothering.

Yeah but sex is. So there’s that. You seem rather confused about things you have said. That’s the third thing you’ve claimed not to have said but people have proved you did. Maybe you need a nice cup of tea and a lie down.

you never answered my question though. You said you were a great advocate for women’s safety and dignity, and I asked if a male with a trans identity wanted to access a female only space for his safety and dignity but a woman wanted that space as single sex for her comfort and dignity, in your opinion who should be able to use the space?

Ive answered this a million times.

i do think there are some minority circumstances where it may be proportionate to restrict services or facilities by “birth sex”. Eg particular health services perhaps or specialist rape crisis support.

HOWEVER, it’s completely unacceptable to make basic services like toilets inaccessible and unsafe for trans people by compelling them to use them in accordance with their birth sex. This is not legitimate or proportionate. It is deeply discriminatory.

I understand that you totally fail to see or understand the impact of these policies on trans people, but that is due to a total lack of insight, understanding or empathy on your part. I’ve tried to explain it to you but you are either unwilling or incapable of getting it so I’m not sure what more there is to say.

Sex is complex, a process of development , and has multiple components, with lots of variation(s).

im not the least confused about what I’ve said. You are confused apparently for reasons that I find baffling.

if you can point me to a post where I said “it’s impossible for anyone to know their sex” I will stand contradicted. I know that you cannot do this because it’s not something that I have ever said or ever would say.

So what you are saying is that in a space dish as a changing room when’re a woman world like it to be single sex for her safety and comfort, you would prioritise the male who wished to access that space rather than the woman’s needs. Why? I thought you were a great advocate for women’s safety and dignity? Seems you were wrong about that too.

I don’t know why you’re bothering either🤣
Off you pop.

I will.

Oh and such policies (banning GNC people from basic facilities) will obviously harm women too. Meanwhile there will be zero benefit in terms of improved safety for women/ girls.

How? How will banning males from female spaces harm women? Or are you gonna pull the “gender non conforming women will suffer” card again? It’s almost like you have a script. If men hadn’t demanded access to female spaces, no one would blink twice at any women entering a female space however she presented. You and your friends did that. You demanded males were included in female spaces. You didn’t give a shiny shit about gender non conforming women then did you? Or any women come to that.

This analogy is totally irrelevant, colour is a spectrum. Sex is binary.

By the way, I'm still waiting on your reply to this post from pages ago

Citations please for trans identified men who have been subjected to actual unlawful discrimination or actual physical violence in the UK (and not male prostitutes in Brazil) please? Hurty words and being told they can't join a lesbian group don't count, I'm wanting evidence of actual discrimination and actual physical violence... if you can find it!

@Tandora you seem very keen to say letting males in female spaces benefits women. How? How does letting a male into my female single sex space benefit me? It will cause me discomfort and upset but you claim it will benefit me. How?

If we look at any evidence you care to point towards we can see that almost all sexually motivated crime is committed by people of the male sex.

Since trans identified men are still people of the male sex, we can safeguard against this known risk of male sexually motivated crime by keeping them out of female single sex spaces along with all the other men.

i do think there are some minority circumstances where it may be proportionate to restrict services or facilities by “birth sex”. Eg particular health services perhaps or specialist rape crisis support.

Oh how magnanimous of you to consider maybe allowing some, very specialist services and support to remain segregated by "birth sex"🙄

Maybe is a word that has cropped up a lot with you in previous threads when asked directly which of these services and supports you would consider allowing. It's a very politician answer that really means "as few as humanly possible, if not none".

HOWEVER, it’s completely unacceptable to make basic services like toilets inaccessible and unsafe for trans people by compelling them to use them in accordance with their birth sex. This is not legitimate or proportionate. It is deeply discriminatory.

No one is saying trans identified people must be excluded from basic services like toilets or that they should be compelled to use the toilets of their biological sex only. They are free to use the mixed sex toilets if they want to, just not the toilets of the opposite sex. That's against the law and morally wrong to boot.

How are the men's toilets unsafe for trans identifying males? Can you provide any actual evidence of attacks made on trans identifying males using the men's toilets? I mean you'd think it'd be huge news right? We're always being told they are the most vulnerable people so surely there's lots of news articles you can lay your hands on which support this?

due to a total lack of insight, understanding or empathy on your part.

Yeah I think I'll save my empathy for actual females, same as my feminism.

This is just wrong, it leans heavily on the relatively new TRA line that somehow keeping males out of female spaces will disproportionately harm GNC women. It's just utter rubbish.

And again there is plenty of evidence to say definitively that single sex spaces are of benefit to females and reduce risk of harm to them from males.

Tandora doesn't mean it will benefit the women like us, Tandora means it will benefit the trans identifying male "women" 🙄

Lol it's got nothing to do with being 'magnanimous' and I'm not a politician and I don't give two shoots about appeasing you.

It's my opinion. Based on reason, logic, insight, instead of irrational phobia/ prejudice against a minority group.

FYI it's not against the law to use any toilet. The SC judgement was about the obligations on service providers to comply with equalities law, not on individuals to avoid certain toilets.

Mixed sex facilities are not always available and potentially humiliating and outing for a trans person to be singled out to use mixed sex.

In terms of safety - would you as an individual woman walk into communal men's toilet and feel comfortable, safe? This is exactly how it would feel to a trans women. It just isn't a viable option for them. No trans woman is going to do this (unless they are still closeted), any more than you would be willing to do this. Again, I get that you refuse/ are not able to understand this, but this is the reality.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that human sex is complex and cannot be identified accurately by doctors and scientists. So, what happens is, doctors 'assign' people a sex based on genitals. However, this is not accurate. Nor is looking at other biological sex markers. The only way of accurately knowing a person's sex is to wait for them to identify it themselves, based on what they deeply feel they are, and then tell us?
If I've understood you correctly, could you tell me what evidence you're relying on to conclude that the 'truth' lies in the person's feelings, rather than in the evidence of their bodies?
We know our brains and emotions can play us false, leading us to believe all sorts of things that are incorrect. So how can we be so certain in this particular thing that it's peoples bodies that are offering up the false evidence as to their sex, and its their feelings that are correct?
Because I think if you're expecting people to treat those they understand to be male as though they are female, offering inclusion and concessions denied for good reason to other men, it's important to give strong evidence that the people concerned are correct that they are not male.

No, I'm also speaking of nontrans women.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that human sex is complex and cannot be identified accurately by doctors and scientists.

No you are not understanding me correctly.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/12/ive-been-spat-on-gender-non-conforming-women-tell-of-toilet-abuse-in-aftermath-of-supreme-court-ruling

So explain how. Explain how, as a woman, making myself uncomfortable by allowing a male in my single sex space will benefit me. And I mean tangible benefits.

Called it!!! Bingo!!!!