About Gender neutral loo

[paulhollywoodshairgel]

I was in a museum today and my daughter (15) left me to go to the loo. She then waved me over.. she said to me.. I’d rather not use the gender neutral loo. I said that’s fine and sent her down a level to the ladies. A woman the approached me and preceded to tell me off for not encouraging my daughter to use the GN loo. How she has a trans child and how are they ever going to feel accepted with people like me around. I’m ND and I always second guess myself 10000 times a day. I wasn’t in the wrong was I?? I just said ok go and use the other separate loo. Surely my child can pee wherever she feels comfortable??!! I hate conflict so I just said ok and walked off!

Is it fair to ever describe anyone as a man or woman if you don't know what their inner gender feelings are? Any man in history might actually have been a closeted woman and vice versa.

Now you’re just trolling. As you very well know, it’s been posted on these boards many, many times.

You are either deliberately being obtuse just to play games in the same vein as pps have exposed above. We’ve all seen you do this many times. OR you genuinely struggle to understand simple statistics like percentages, and are challenged by basic English of a level that is comprehendible to the average Sun reader.

Either way, I’m no playing your silly games where you goad me to paste - yet again - official stats like those from the ONS, that you’ve had presented to you multiple times, just so you can argue they don’t mean what they actually mean, all the while asserting there’s evidence for your own position, while never producing it.

Arguing black is white, up is down and men with cocks and balls are women is your speciality, isn’t it.

Me, I care that women and girls are not put at risk and their rights aren’t taken away from them. I find your stance morally repugnant.

I see you.

And @Tandora I’m not cross that you’re disagreeing with me.

I’m cross because you are deliberately working to put women and children at risk and take away our rights. To benefit men.

THAT makes me angry.

I make not apology for that.

It isn’t. As you’ve been told. Many times. It’s immutable and binary. There isn’t a third sex.

Work on your own comprehension. Please.

Those are not statistics aboit situations where there are men and women’s facilities only the women’s includes trans women (and the men’s includes trans men). The stats you are referring to are situations where everyone is together. That’s completely different and it makes sense why harassment would increase in those situations- It’s about social norms.

Anyway I don’t think you and I need to continue this dialogue because a) you are extremely rude.
b) in the nicest possible way I don’t feel there is a match here in terms of insight .

You mean apart from the fact that trans identifying male offenders follow male pattern offending, and almost two thirds of trans identifying male prisoners were convicted for sexual offences, and that going by the stats in the graphic attached an argument could be made that the evidence may show that trans identifying males are possibly more likely to commit sexual offenses?

How does one tell the difference between a ‘genuine’ trans woman aka a real woman in your eyes, from a gender nonconforming male? One that likes say wearing dresses, heels and make up.

Again. You cannot generalise to the population using prison statistics. It’s not representative.

in the nicest possible way I don’t feel there is a match here in terms of insight.

@BunfightBetty oh I hope you are too injured by that 'burn' from Tandora. Fancy being told you aren't a match from the amazing insight of Tandora! I think I would be relieved personally as I know which way the imbalance in insight lies.

I actually wanted to say something much more direct/ precise, but another imbalance that exists is that I have to be extremely careful with my words, while others are free to hurl all the insults they want.

Well, I certainly agree with you about b), so there’s a first.

I’d much rather be rude than put women and girls at risk by dick-pandering. Clearly, we have very different values.

Very different values indeed.

A risk assessment doesn't have to be representative of a population.
One of the risks in a mixed sex facility is an unwanted pregnancy. Its easily mitigated by making the facility single sex.

One of the risks in a mixed sex facility is an unwanted pregnancy

lol.
you sound like someone who would be more comfortable living somewhere with laws like Saudi Arabia.

No

You just want that to be true. You have zero evidence to back up your assertion that a person's mind has anything to do with their biological sex. Males observed male at birth are always fully biological males unless they are unable to tell in which case they are initially observed as having a DSD.

This is not the case with most "transwomen" who are clearly observed as definitely male....no doubts at all! Which means all you have left is this THEORY that some of them might have a "female mind"

But women do have the right to dignity from fully biological males in male biological bodies REGARDLESS of whether they have "female minds" or not.

😂 Absolutely! It’s a moment of vanishingly rare insight/self-reflection on Tandora’s part, for sure.

You just want that to be true.

Another strangely illogical assumption. Why on earth would I want that to be true? For what purpose?

Oh, there’ll be some ‘reason’ why Tandora doesn’t accept theee stats. They never do if the stats don’t fit with their pre-conceived fixed ideas.

Well you don’t really have to be ‘extremely careful with words’. In your world words are what you decide they are. Man means woman, blue can mean green, fish are actually dogs.

Surely you can just bash on say anything you like as words are what YOU say they mean? No?

Well the prison stats show that a large percentage of trans identified male prisoners are in jail for sexual offenses and follow male offending patterns.

This shows that trans identified males are no different really to other men.

The multiple links to articles about the harms done to women and girls earlier in this thread and in others shows that even if you ignored the sexual offenses of incarcerated trans identifying prisoners, in every day life there have been sexual crimes perpetrated against women and girls in places that used to be single sex spaces.

Even more, you have been provided ample evidence over multiple threads that mixed sex spaces have been proven time and again to be less safe for women and girls.

You can pretend the evidence doesn't exist, or somehow doesn't show what it in fact shows - women and girls need single sex spaces away from all males. Given that trans identifying males are still male, that includes them.

You make yourself look very stupid when you try to deny the evidence we can all see, and just as stupid when you try to tell us we "interpret" it wrongly.

For the purpose of justifying your belief that some men are actually women.

Yes, why make an exception for me?

No prison stats don’t say anything about the general transgender population.

That’s the whole point.

you cannot generalise from prison stats to the broader population, anyone who knows anything about statistics knows this.

On the other point I’m not going to keep repeating myself as it’s just silly. The evidence about increased harassment relates to facilities where everyone is together. There is no evidence that separate facilities for men and women where men’s can include trans men and women can include trans women increases violence. None. And there is no evidence that policing where trans people use the loo will improve safety for women: girls: none. It won’t:

Anyone who knows about risk assessments and safeguarding disagrees with you.

Maybe we should safeguard children by separating them from certain ethnic minority groups, where prison stats show disproportionately higher numbers of that group in jail for sexual offences ?

Sound right, reasonable, logical , rational …. anything to do with safeguarding? No. Thought not.