Hostile and entitled man hijacking my table

[BluntPlumHam]

I stopped to have some lunch at a busy market where there is a lot of seating however often taken up so some waiting around.

Often a woman dining on her own or having coffee may ask to share a table which I always agree to.

I was sat at a table for 4 already eating.

Man and woman approach and ask if they can share my table.

I asked is it just you two and pointed at the seats opposite me and he nodded. So I said ok because it was super busy.

Seconds later a third person joins and I’m now encircled by their group. I took my headphones out and said hang on you didn’t say there were three of you?

He immediately got hostile and red in the face and said you need to go find a table for one person.

I put my cutlery down and said you need to move. He started blathering on about being allowed to voice his opinion and I just said no and firmly said leave because I wasn’t about to engage in a discussion or argument with this man child.

He started throwing a tantrum exclaiming that he’s not leaving puffing his chest out etc and his wife was trying to calm him down and kept apologising to me. He was clearly ready to have a stand off with me. I just turned to her, your husband is hostile, harassing me now and I want you to all leave to which she eventually said ok and that we will go find another table. He reluctantly left but not without trying to start a fight with me I just remained firm and resilient. Just kept repeating sternly you all need to leave now and find another table.

Wife was visibly embarrassed by his behaviour and grabbed my arm and sincerely apologised.

I just feel that a certain culture of general hostility towards women is being normalised in this day and age. Although I initially allowed him to sit there when I realised this was a group I revoked that permission but men can’t take a no for an answer.

Despite me doing them a favour and letting them sit there he had the audacity to get angry with me when I questioned the third person and tell me to go find another table midway my food. They did not have their food yet.

Men feel entitled to encroach and stay in women’s personal space even when bluntly told to go. Would it have been different had I been a man, absolutely.

AIBU for making them leave.

You can’t defend people who keep their bags on their seats on BUSY trains and then go “oh well I’d never do it on a BUSY train obviously” every time someone points out why it’s rude.

We know you wouldn’t do it yourself. You’ve said so several times. You’ve not answered why you move your bag when the train gets busy if you think it’s fine to keep the bag there until asked to move it. You’ve also not said why you keep defending people leaving their bags on seats on busy trains if you, yourself, wouldn’t do it.

The conversation so far is literally:
PP: Bags on seats on busy trains is rude
You: No it isn’t. I have my bag on seats on empty trains.
PP: Yes it is. Bags on seats on busy trains is rude.
You: Oh yes, I would never do it on a busy train ever.
PP: Exactly. It’s rude on a busy train.
You: No, it’s not rude, just ask them to move it.
PP: Here’s a reason why people wouldn’t feel safe asking.
You: Oh yes, I would never do that on a busy train!
PP: Right, because it’s rude!
You: No, it’s not rude…

Why do you keep pointing out that you move your bag when trains get busy if you don’t think it’s rude to leave your bag on a seat when trains are busy?

Oh my God, I have said many times that it IS rude on a busy train but that it is ALSO not a huge deal for most people to ask to move it and the issue goes away. It is not the same as loud music which is automatically impinging on someone else. I also take the point that for some people, asking for it to be moved is a difficult thing. I am not defending people who do it on a bust train. And I am now done with this.

I suppose it depends how you classify an altercation. I was on a very over crowded train, the previous one was cancelled so double passengers. Young man sitting in window seat with big rucksack on aisle seat. I asked him to move his rucksack and he said he couldn't as nowhere to put it. I pointed out it was a priority seat, said I had no idea if he had a reason to be In a priority seats but I was sure as a 71 year old with arthritis I had more of a need for it than his rucksack did. He moved his rucksack.

I was smiling, he gave in and politely warned me in advance when getting close to his station. Was it an altercation or just two people discussing their needs.

Thank you! It is rude, I'm glad you finally accept that it is rude.

And, yes, being rude is a big deal and does impinge on other people. Honestly, I'm very grateful when busy trains have people stood up while rude people block seats and the guards tell them to move it. Inevitably, someone will then be able to sit down (much to the dismay of the rude person).

Passing a dog on the same side in the street isn't a big deal to most people. If that dog were wearing a leash that said "CAUTION: AGGRESSIVE DOG" then most people would avoid it, hold back or cross the road to pass. Having a bag on a seat on a busy train is the same as a badge that says "I'M A RUDE, UNREASONABLE AND INCONSIDERATE PERSON". Most normal people wouldn't want to approach someone with that label. If the passenger said out loud "I don't want to sit next to you" then you wouldn't blame people for choosing to anxiously stand instead of engaging - putting a bag on the seat next to you on a busy train is exactly the same as saying "I don't want to sit next to you".

This is crazy - do you have an overwhelming need to have the last word? I have never disagreed that it is rude on a busy train. You haven't managed to convince me of something I didn't already think. I do think it must be exhausting to read so much into very ordinary everyday situations.

Do you have an overwhelming need to get the last word?

You said you had nothing more to say. That doesn’t mean I have to shut up - it means you’re done. If I say something else, that’s not me needing to get the last word, it’s me finishing my own point. If you then decide you need to say more - that is you needing to get the last word even though you said you’d finished.

Funny how you chose to respond and have STILL refused to answer the questions asked 🤷‍♀️

Yes immensely true

Sorry, which question didn't i answer? Happy too. I'm bored, decided to come back.

You completely and deliberately ignore the point I made, that people understand what I mean by 'employ in the context I used it.

From one simple comment I made, that I once employed a trio of cleaners who could not speak English and were dominant and I felt outnumbered in my own house, and vulnerable, and understood how the OP felt the same.

Obviously you and your mates picked up on that, and I have been criticised for employing them, and should have known that three of them together would be intimidating, and the fact that they didn't clean but moved all the furniture round despite knowing I was a wheelchair user, so I got them back the next day to put the furniture back and didn't pay them. Because they didn't speak English (the boss who did had left them and went off somewhere) I asked if they had work permits. Obviously they did not, because they left smartish.

For that I have been clobbered by a group of posters on here who have skirted around the empathy and understanding I had for the poor woman who was being intimidated at lunch, into a legal dispute on words I used.

The problem with you is that you are obviously either a solicitor or work for ACAS and want the world and his wife to know that, so in order that you may shine brightly, you use other people and humiliate them in order to make yourself look nori knowledgeable.

No one should give legal advice on this or any other chat site unless they are qualified to do so. Nothing I have said is as legal advice.

I have not used the term ''employ a carer' as a legal term, because I am not writing a legal document. I am speaking colloquially, as in speaking to someone in conversation.

I will continue to use that phrase in conversation. I am unlikely ever to need it on a legal document, so what point is there in the misery you are causing me?

you and your mates

What on earth are you on about?

And as I said before I don't think the OP is a poor woman either. I'm allowed to have a different opinion to you. And although the OP left a long time ago you keep returning to talk about your experiences which are not related to the situation or setting described in the thread.

As I, and others, have said several times - nobody cares if you use the term "employ" in a colloquial sense.

But you have repeatedly and persistently talked about yourself as an "employer' in a legal sense!

You have stated in multiple posts what (you believe to be) your legal obligations as an employer are, and quoted guidance for employers, as if it applied to you - including that you believe you have a duty to demand from people you believe to not be British, proof of their right to work.

By all means continue to use the word "employ" but as you are not an employer, you do not have a duty to demand proof of right to work (nor should you).

I would have assumed knowing that the various other laws you wrongly insisted applied to you (including that if you hired cleaners/carers for more than 10 hours p/w, or paid them above a certain amount p/a, that you must administer payroll, handle NI, give vacation pay and sick pay) would be a good and helpful thing for you to know. I don't understand why it is causing you distress.

Again:

• use the term "employ" colloquially if you want, nobody cares.

• if you don't want people to point out that you are not legally an employer, and that employment laws do not apply to you, stop (wrongly) insisting that you are and that they do.

• even if being corrected on the law is causing you some distress, please acknowledge that by posting misinformation about people's legal responsibilities, you might cause distress to others (and could inadvertently cause people to make bad decisions that negatively impact them).

I would be extremely happy to leave it there.

Lets face it, anyone who puts their bag on a seat is trying to discourage other people from sitting there. It's done hoping that rather than go to the hassle of having a conversation, the person will move on and look for a different seat. Theres no other reason, so it is de facto rude and entitled.

On my train line, certainly at rush hour, people won't ask someone to move their bag, they will move it themselves, often quote unceremoniously, or sit on it, to make a point.

My carer thinks it hilarious. He says elderly clients are sometimes obsessed with the right way to use words, especially if they are retired from the legal profession and have little else to do.

You have no grounds whatsoever for speculating that someone is or has been involved in the legal profession, or to suggest / imply what age they are.

You have been told, repeatedly and directly, that nobody cares how you use the word "employ", and yet you keep pretending that we do, why is that?

I'm starting to suspect that all your past carers and cleaners have spoken excellent English - it's just don't understand the language.

It's sweet of your carer to humor you.

Yes & every scenario is unique of course
Sometimes I need to purchase & carry home others groceries, so if a bus or train has plenty of other seat choices present, then to give myself a break from holding so much weight, I would place in seat closest to me
However, if the bus or train should suddenly fill then naturally of course, then I'd move mentioned heavy shop & put on my lap
It just depends on each individual's circumstances 🙏

I'd like to share a dining table for an hour or so with a hand-picked selection of PPs on this thread, all gathered together. I'd be there with a sack of buns for them to throw!

I'm actually a current lawyer.

As said a thousand times now. No one cares if you use the word "employ". People are irritated that you keep lying. It's not hard - stop lying.

May I respectfully suggest, that you have many different interests before you retire.

I was a high flyer once. I got up to go to work one morning and my legs gave way.

We don't know what is around the corner, do we?

You and this man were separated at birth. Bit annoying they said it was only two of them when it was three of them. Though you don’t own the table. You said your bit thigh throwing a hissy fit was not necessary. Honest to goodness feel sorry for the others and people around too.