Hostile and entitled man hijacking my table

[BluntPlumHam]

I stopped to have some lunch at a busy market where there is a lot of seating however often taken up so some waiting around.

Often a woman dining on her own or having coffee may ask to share a table which I always agree to.

I was sat at a table for 4 already eating.

Man and woman approach and ask if they can share my table.

I asked is it just you two and pointed at the seats opposite me and he nodded. So I said ok because it was super busy.

Seconds later a third person joins and I’m now encircled by their group. I took my headphones out and said hang on you didn’t say there were three of you?

He immediately got hostile and red in the face and said you need to go find a table for one person.

I put my cutlery down and said you need to move. He started blathering on about being allowed to voice his opinion and I just said no and firmly said leave because I wasn’t about to engage in a discussion or argument with this man child.

He started throwing a tantrum exclaiming that he’s not leaving puffing his chest out etc and his wife was trying to calm him down and kept apologising to me. He was clearly ready to have a stand off with me. I just turned to her, your husband is hostile, harassing me now and I want you to all leave to which she eventually said ok and that we will go find another table. He reluctantly left but not without trying to start a fight with me I just remained firm and resilient. Just kept repeating sternly you all need to leave now and find another table.

Wife was visibly embarrassed by his behaviour and grabbed my arm and sincerely apologised.

I just feel that a certain culture of general hostility towards women is being normalised in this day and age. Although I initially allowed him to sit there when I realised this was a group I revoked that permission but men can’t take a no for an answer.

Despite me doing them a favour and letting them sit there he had the audacity to get angry with me when I questioned the third person and tell me to go find another table midway my food. They did not have their food yet.

Men feel entitled to encroach and stay in women’s personal space even when bluntly told to go. Would it have been different had I been a man, absolutely.

AIBU for making them leave.

maybe it was a different poster who initially responded to me or else you misread my first post because at no point did I say it would be ok to leave a bag on a seat when people are standing. If you weren't the first responder though, why would you raise the issue of the bag being left when it's busy - its a totally different one to what I orginially described. I still disagree with you about asking though - it shouldn't be necessary but its not a massive deal and is nowhere near a "confrontation".

I don’t think you can argue it’s not a big deal on a thread where someone made a reasonable request to OP and ended up being bullied off the table by OP’s relentless vitriol

Totally agree with this. And made even worse when the other 3 are together and no doubt would be chatting.

if someone refuses a request and you're not up for a fight, just move away. The original scenario of this thread would have allowed that. Trains allow that. Personally, I would and have stood my ground but if people aren't confident that's up to them. At no point am I condoning the hogging of needed seats and I think the Op was wrong.

That means standing on the train though? People shouldn't have to fight for a seat on a train when one doesn't have a human already in it. OP has already falsely accused the man in the OP of harassing, threatening, bullying and attacking her - who knows what could have escalated without the wife intervening? Would OP have had him arrested and charged? Removed from the venue?

I'm not going to fight someone for a seat on a train. I'm also disabled and need to sit down.

and no-one is saying otherwise. But people are dicks and sometimes you will have to be assertive. No you shouldn't have to. I don't really know what we're arguing about really.

OP asks a grown man a simple question, this man jumps down her throat and she’s the one that bullied him off the table with relentless vitriol?? I hope you’re trying to be funny otherwise I’m in the twilight zone 😅 I hope you never do jury service ffs

It is illegal to ''hire' 'use' employ' (or whatever word you want to use) if they obviously cannot speak English properly and you have not asked to see if they are legally able to work in UK. If you 'hire' someone from an employment agency that 'employs' them, (and God knows what you would call the ones employed by an employment agency yet are self employed) and you suspect they do not have a permit to work in UK, then you are just as culpable as the agency is. You might get a lighter punishment, but if you are paying them through another agency, and they send someone who cannot speak English, you have to make sure they are legal.

A man(Pilate) put a notice on the cross saying ''The King of the Jews''. The Pharisees said ''Do not write on it 'King of the Jews, but say ''this man says he is King of the Jews''.

Pilate turned to them and said ''What I have written, I have written''.

He refused to change the words because someone didn't like them.

You can't accuse people of trolling because their viewpoint is different to yours.

Why did you feel you could occupy a table for four by yourself when other customers didn’t have a seat, op?
They didn’t actually need your permission to sit in a vacant seat.

Again, nothing in your first paragraph is true.

I am done with you and your opinion.

I asked if I had the right to ask a foreign worker if they have a work permit. This is the answer: I did not mention the word employ, employer, employee. The reply mentions 'requirement for all employers'. That also covers people who work in your home or office who are sent by an agency. You can ask the agency, if you use one, or the worker.
xxx
"Yes, you have the right, and indeed a responsibility, to ask a foreign worker for their work permit (or evidence of their right to work) in the UK. This is a legal requirement for all employers in the UK to prevent illegal working. "

Elaboration:
Legal Obligation:
The UK has specific laws and regulations to ensure that only those with the right to work are employed. "

What you are doing has caused me great distress by arguing the toss over a common term of phraseology.

I have told you I am physically disabled, and have employed carers for more than a decade and when I apply the term 'employ' I do not mean it in the absolute meaning of the law. To tell me that I am wrong in conversation to use the word 'employ' when referring to my caregivers is pedantic and splitting hairs. It has been suggested that I would be more legally accurate if I use the word 'use'. I have said before that I do not ''use them''. They are not volunteers, they are hard working independent self employed people who deserve their pay.

I will continue to use the word EMPLOY when I refer to someone I am paying to do a job, because I consider that to be a more accurate word to use. It is certainly kinder. They are not volunteers to be 'used'

I would only use the term 'I use' when someone asks me if I use an employment/care agency and who that agency is. Then I would say ''I use such and such agency.

Are you obsessed with opposing what posters write for the sake of it, obsessed in getting the last word or you cannot resist the opportunity to cause distress?

You can ask the management to take this post off. That at least will tell me that you and your friends have read it.

Now you're not even reading your own posts (which makes clear that the obligations apply to employers).

Use the word "employ" in a colloquial sense to mean "hire", or "contract", if you like - nobody really cares, its irrelevant.

But just because you use the word "employ" does not make you an EMPLOYER, legally.

So laws that apply to EMPLOYERS do not apply to you, when you are not one.

Meaning you don't need to ask people for their work permits, and its actually quite inappropriate for you to do so. You also don't need to worry about payroll and stuff like that.

@llizzie

I will be as clear as I can.

When you engage a cleaning company to provide cleaning services to you, legally you are a customer, not an employer. The company (the employer) is obligated to comply with employment laws, you are not.

When you engage self-employed cleaners or carers, in the manner you described, they are independent contrators, and you are legally a client.

You can say "I employ a cleaner", if that is your preferred phrasing, but that does not make you an employer at law. Laws that apply to employers do not apply to you, in your described circumstances.

When engaging a company as a customer, or engaging an independent contractor as a customer (which are the two things you describe doing), you do not need to ask them for proof of their right to work in the UK.

In your circumstances, asking for proof of the cleaner/carers right to work, based on their ethnicity or language proficiency is a bad idea. It may expose you to a claim under the Equality Act (which does apply to some independent contractor - client relationships). Even if it does not expose you to a claim, you are asking for something you are not entitled to, on a discrimatory basis, which might anger someone (when you are in a vulnerable position).

I hope that makes sense but, if you do not understand or believe me, consider speaking to Citizens Advice.

One of my adult daughters has autism and high anxiety, but you wouldn't know to look at her. She won't speak to strangers - she certainly wouldn't ask someone on a train to move their bag. She would be scared the rest of the journey that the person would be angry with her and she would possibly have a panic attack.

Tbf she has no idea how the person is going to respond. The very fact they've done it suggests they aren't going to be happy to be asked to move. She won't want to risk it. She is adopted - she had a very traumatic start in life and is hypervigilant in public places, a people pleaser. No way is she going to risk a confrontation.

Anyone on here saying it's no big deal to ask someone to move their bag clearly has no idea about hidden disabilities and how stressful public transport can be.

I absolutely do understand that and I haven't said people should wait to be asked..I pre-empt the need and move mine but it's unrealistic to imagine that everyone is going to or that they'll put their bag on an inconvenient, dirty floor when there are plenty of empty seats. I really do sympathise and feel for your DD but public places are just that.. public.

My bag goes on my lap when I sit down, not on the seat next to me. I think that's basic manners. In the case of the OP it would have been basic manners for her to accept that people looking for somewhere to sit would expect to use her table and the available seats on it. However she seems to have disappeared long ago and the thread has been derailed by people talking about other things, it seems.

Its a table for 4. Where does it say that all 4 people have to know each other. Who put you in charge of the tables and the seating area. YABVU.

Unfortunately it was you that was being entitled here.

Dh commutes every day. He got on the train recently and someone sitting in aisle seat had their bag in window seat, so dh asked if he could sit down. The woman said no! She said she had anxiety. Dh said ok, as he had spied a spare seat a way down the carriage, but good luck with that because the next station is X and about 1000 people get on there. Sure enough he saw that her protestations were in vain as a passenger just stood over her till she moved her bag.

So yes, you do have to get into an altercation with some people which is really uncomfortable. I’ve had the theatrical sighing when I’ve asked to sit down on a train, but a refusal is on another level.

The OP sounds scary enough in a food court/market; I hope she doesn’t take public transport!

She was travelling on a train, too anxious to sit beside other people?!

I think she just wanted two seats, or else dh looked very sinister at 6.10am…

As I have said repeatedly, I move my bag from the seat as soon as it is clear the train is becoming busy but I'm not going to sit there with a rucksack on my lap on half empty train! Nothing to do with manners..I'd think it was pretty poor form if someone was intent on sitting next to someone else when there are loads of spare doubles.

Wow. Good for you. Hopefully he’ll think again before behaving that way again or in another scenario.