Toxic Mother strikes again HELP!

[Peterpickedapickled]

I posted last week. To recap….
I have managed my elderly DMs difficult behaviour for years. It comes in waves over the years and depends upon whether or not I am meeting her needs. As soon as she feels I am not, her behaviour changes.
She is in constant contact with me. I struggle with boundaries. When I do enforce a boundary, she goes nuts!
I pull my guts out trying to help her whilst holding down a demanding job and a family. I listen to all her health problems and negativity because she has no one through her own choice.
She wanted a parcel taking to the post office. I agreed but said it would be next week when the parking was better. Several IMPORTANT messages later and she had changed where I could take it back to somewhere else. All because I said the parking was bad. Then she sent confusing messages saying she can take it back. This went on and on and in the end I just asked what she wanted me to do. This was all happening on my birthday when she knew I was going out. I said it was getting f**ing ridiculous. I had just had enough of it all!

Bad move I guess! She demanded an apology, said I was making a drama out of it, said I had no respect for her and that she would never ask me to do anything for her again. She then gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks.

I have been away with my DH and DD and I have tried not to let it spoil our break but it’s been hard. I am so tired of her behaviour and very low and emotional.

My DD is 14 soon. I finally got a message from DM today letting me know that she is giving her money for her birthday.

She went in to say she has texted my DD asking if she is going away as she knew we were thinking about it. She hates giving money as it’s like you can’t be bothered but she doesn’t want to get her anything if she won’t be around. She stated that “just because we are not amicable doesn’t mean it needs to be inflicted on my DD. I missed hearing about her recent trip with school”

For context, DM was invited to my home when my DD came back from the trip so she could share pics etc. This was just after the parcel debacle and I decided it may be best if we go to her as I knew she was unhappy with me. I suggested this and that’s when she kicked off and went silent.

I just don’t know what to do for the best. I don’t want NC at the moment as this would be a massive step that I must feel 100% comfortable with. She is 85 and it’s difficult for me. I feel so confused but know what I feel about our relationship isn’t right. I don’t know whether it’s me thats the issue or her. My DH tells me it’s her.

I am trying not to reply but that doesn’t feel right either. I just don’t know how to handle it. I have been handling it wrong for years because I allow her in, to take over, I give her everything she wants. I can’t stop myself.

I am now seriously considering some counselling if I can afford it. I have realised that all the times I have felt off, aching everywhere, migraines, restless, confused, agitated, it’s in part, due to her behaviour and my fear of repercussions. I am even seeing a physio who told me my pain was stress related.

Thanks for reading x

@Middleaged73 oh how I wish I was as brave as you. I applaud you 👏🏻

@SpryCat you hit the nail on the head there! When I had my DD she wanted to look after her while we worked. That was great, or was it! She insisted she went to the nursery where she lived as SHE was childminding, she told us she would look after her while we worked but not “so we could go out enjoying ourselves “. When she finally had enough and broke down in tears as it was all too much for her to childmind anymore. I understand and had compassion and so I managed to get a childminder friend to take my daughter. DM went mad, said she wanted to carry on for a few more weeks, swore at me and called my DH a few nasty names. Just can’t win!

Bugger me what a manipulative baggage she is. She’s got you tied up like a pretzel. She is a horror OP. No adult should be as frightened of a family member as you are. You are a grown adult, a mother, you shouldn’t need to feel like a frightened little mouse.

Talk to your Employee Assistance scheme at work and see if they offer counselling/ therapy - there is a LOT to talk about

@Comtesse thank you. I actually looked jnto it at work yesterday as we have an employee assistance line that offers counselling. I have also looked up local counselling. It’s very expensive and I was wondering if I needed to do a session every week as I may be able to afford it every 2 weeks?

All I know is I can’t care on the way I have been. It funny because when you experience a loss (my DF) it can allow you to see your life differently and that’s what’s happening to me. I realised that I needed to make some changes. So I applied for a new, higher level job because I needed the challenge and the change. I worked hard and got it. I joined a social group and sought out connections with new people and I backed away from a friend that no longer fit with my values and life and cut ties with my toxic DB.

I did all this but still couldn’t change the relationship I have with my DM! It’s the only thing left that’s a negative in my life at the moment. I know I am a strong person so I need to stop accepting this way of being.

@Peterpickedapickled you are bonded to her trauma and blood ties. It really is not easy but once you start seeing a pattern then you cannnot unsee it and they never change. My own mother guilt tripped me over everything and even when I cut contact had others contacting me to say what will you do when she dies and you know my honest thought process is? Then this will all be over, she cannot spread any new lies about me as she has slandered me to all and sundry over the years in order to try isolate me to keep me going back to having her in my life but I am now through the other side and through therapy and all I think is if they sat and listened to her belittling me i dont need them in my life either. When she dies it will be heartbreaking but I am already grieving the loss of a mother I never really had and it is as hard to grieve a living person but I cannot have her in my life. Once she realised I was no longer reacting to her abuse to me she started on my kids and that is where it ended. She wont abuse them like she did me.

@Suednymph gosh that’s just how I feel but don’t want to admit it. Made me shed a tear that. It’s cathartic to know that it’s not just me. I love her despite her ways but I don’t like her. I would have ended it long ago if it was a friend. Who would choose to have continued contact with someone who is such hard work never mind all the other stuff!!

Sadly far too many ppl like this in the world. Really do look for the stately homes threads. A lot of support on them x

I’ve been feeling exactly that way about a family member and I’ve said those very words to myself, that if it was a friend they’d be long gone. And have imagined the freedom that thought gave me.

So sorry you are experiencing this. ♥️

I had this too and was in a chronic state of anxiety and low confidence. She tried her best to stamp all over my own happy family home life as best she could. I tried boundaries but I could have literally tattooed them on her forehead and she wouldn’t have listened. In fact she saw any boundaries as a personal challenge to be aggressively smashed down. I’m NC now and it’s been the best thing I ever did. Only regret I didn’t do it as soon as I left home. You have to work through guilt and some self doubt and it’s not always easy, but in the long run I now have peace and my own life. In my case this was absolutely the only choice unless I wanted her spoiling the rest of my life.

I think you can probably use DB as the perfect deflection tool. “I am absolutely swamped at work and with the kids. You’ll have to ask DB this time.”
*The trick is to be assertive and not ask “Why aren’t you asking DB?” or “What does DB ever do for you?”…. Because this gives her the chance to use comparison to manipulate you. (Can’t bother DB because he is far too busy and important. His job is more important. He is terribly overwhelmed juggling all his responsibilities, etc…. ie, You are less important/terribly neglectful/cruel etc…)

Not much to add to what has already been said, but perhaps there are little things you can change, so to take the parcel thing as an example, next time she asks you to take a parcel to the post office, say, sorry, I can't, but I can get the postman to pick it up if you tell me the address and size/weight. Then you can simply book online for the post office to print a label and pick it up from her.

@Francestein what a great idea. I had never considered why she doesn’t ask him to help. I get he is 3 hours drive away but many things she asks me to do are online, researching things etc.

Makes me laugh but he is 58, doesn’t work and hasn’t for most of his adult life. He drives, has a wife out at work all day, no kids and they don’t speak to any of her family (her kids included).

He has more time on his hands than me and he visits DM or has her at his house once, maybe twice a year! He rarely takes her anywhere when he visits.

He does call her every day mind you, so I have no idea why she needs to text me every single day, many times a day!

The penny has just dropped!!

I’m 5 years pretty much NC. I tried to do LC with boundaries and they couldn’t manage so it’s NC. Very occasionally maybe once a year like the garage accidentally phone me about her car that had gone in for a service - I left a message saying garage rung me about your car - ring them to sort it. I don’t open the door. It’s a lot easier to go NC than LC in my view. The first year of NC is hard first Christmas etc but I actually would she’s 85 and she is not going to get better.

Encourage your DD to make and stick to her own boundaries - mine wanted no contact.

This does seem a thing with these types of mothers. I had young children, two dogs and a very busy home life as my husband is away a lot with his job. DM use to expect me to drop all these things, including my kids to run around after her like I was some unpaid servant, whilst my brother at the time was single, just as close and spent the majority of his free time going out partying. My mum used to to say ‘oh but I can’t bother John, he’s so busy’. She also thought he was the new messiah! He could literally do no wrong and the way she’d talk about him made it sound like she was in love with him. It was all quite strange and slightly creepy! To be fair, my DB didn’t ask to be adored, but he’s certainly seen a different side to her since I went NC as he now gets some grief from her.

@Houndymumma I can relate!

My DM worships my DB and he is an arrogant, self centred big head. He has absolutely no people skills and talks to everyone including her, like he has stepped in them.

My DD and DB didn’t get on. He is my half brother. My DD saw right through him and he brought so much trouble home. My DM makes so many excuses for his behaviour but my DD didn’t.

Mothers like yours don’t value your time because they don’t recognise you as an autonomous person. You are simply the convenient means to an end.
I guess it never occurs to her that you may think or feel differently to her because her opinions are the only valid ones. Her feelings are of prime importance in every moment.
She worships your brother because he would fuck right out of her life if she didn’t pander to him. She sees your role as the dutiful daughter who provides services and attention that she feels entitled to.
More space…. More brother.

Agree with the suggestion to go over to the RL board and look up the threads about "stately homes". You will find plenty of others in a similar situation, which maybe helps to see that you are not the unreasonable one, no matter how many times your mother or your brother try to tell you that.

There were many good ideas in this thread, and I'd like to add that you are in a relatively "good" position because you have your own life and family, you are not beholden to her by any money or work in the family company or anything like it, you are running a fully independent life. Your "only" connection is emotional.

With regards to your brother, look up a theory that explains the term "golden child". It's a parental technique to divide and rule. One child is the favourite, and the other one can never be good enough, no matter what they do. Even if you were the most perfect and successful person on earth, it wouldn't be good enough for your mother. It's unwinnable.

The difference is that sometimes the "golden child" realises what is happening and understands their brothers or sisters, so that they can deal with it together and in solidarity. Other times, the "golden child" turns into a copy of the parent and continues the toxicity.

On top of this, the child trying to win their mother's (or father's) favour, will keep doing their bidding even at detriment to themselves. Only when it doesn't matter to you anymore what the parent thinks of you, then you can let go, and if you want to help them (because you don't want to be a bad as them), do it own your own terms - such as 2 hours per week for errands etc.
That is also why it is good for you that you have material independence from her, any withholding of money / inheritance can not hurt you.

If you can bear it, take time to feel sorrow about the mother you couldn't have, with theraphy if you can, and separate yourself mentally.

Also start to think about what is going to happen when she gets older or ill and needs more help, how that will be organized and whether your brother will help at all, or which scenarios are possible, so that you are not taken back into her loop when she needs serious help.

Yes although I do get on with my DB when I rarely see him, he is a bit of a spoilt entitled brat and use to say ‘oh mum’s ok’ as he never got it and seemed to think it was my burden to carry, not his. Now he’s being driven insane by her it’s a different story and I do feel a sense of karma!

@Peterpickedapickled . I understand how you feel . My DM is over 90 and very frail . I feel it's too late to assert myself / set boundaries . I have no issues with doing this in any other aspect of my life but cannot seem to free myself from the guilt. She has no insight into how her , and my late fathers behaviour, throughout my life has affected me . I have no siblings and sadly she has lost her few close friends and her siblings and is totally dependent on me .
I have lost count of the number of times I have been in tears or the times when her behaviour has made me so low I have been unable to enjoy my life .
I have even name changed for this as I post due to feelings of guilt .

You need to read this book:

Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents

Lindsay C Gibson

Your mother has narcissistic traits. I am no psychotherapist, but, after having many problems with my own mother for many years, a friend bought me a bought about narcissistic mothers, I had never even heard the term before. After reading it, I was enlightened, couldn’t believe how many of the traits my own mother had. After some very bad personal experiences, which are so long that I won’t go into, she was more bothered about her own situation. So after nearly fifty years, I ended the relationship, and have never been happier. It’s about five years now. I am so much happier, I realised that most of the stress and anxiety I was experiencing was down to her and the way she carried on. In her whole life she has never ever been responsible for any problem, never said sorry. Some have mentioned that it’s a small issue, the post, but, it’s just one of the symptoms of a cause that just won’t go away. I spent months making my mind up, and her age 70s at the time gave me pause for thought, but, I did the right thing, she had the kids contact details and the kids have hers but there isn’t a lot of contact which is a shame, but I am not going to blame myself for any more years for other adults actions, kids are in twenties now.

Yes its very draining. I got told you have plenty of cars) yep nobody works lol. Tiring op I just try keep good boundaries otherwise I be run ragged by her. They selfish

@Quicknamechangex2x2 I understand you ❤️. I wish you strength.
It’s not about the parcel really. Okay it made me frustrated but it’s more than a stupid parcel. It’s that I dare not say anything (eg that it was difficult to park) because she takes everything I say and twists it, then makes it an issue that I have caused.

Its the years of her being unhappy with me about the simplest of things that no one else finds a problem.

It’s the total selfishness. On the way back from hospital and having spoken to consultants about DD being at end of life, she wanted me to take her to the supermarket. In a conversation a week after his death, I said I had never seen DD cry, she told me the only time was when I had done XYZ and upset him! Of all the things you want to hear when you a bereaved. Nasty women really.

You can’t just ignore all these moments. You carry them alongside the relationship and slowly the relationship breaks down.

She once told me she felt very depressed when I went on a holiday! I don’t forget these remarks, ever!

I don’t like throwing around diagnosis terms and she has not been diagnosed with anything, but I do think there is something wrong. Is she a narcissist, does she have depression and chronic anxiety. I don’t know and I don’t know what her home life was like because it’s not my experience. Regardless of the label, she isn’t a very nice person. Not to me or about others. None of us would choose to spend time with these sorts of people I am sure.

@Tryingtobehappytomorrow123 do you mind me asking how you dealt with her being in her 70s when you went NC. Do you worry about not knowing if she is very poorly or do you have a relative that would tell you?

I don’t think my DB would tell me and I have his number blocked. What if she dies, would the guilt of not having a relationship with her consume me?

@Peterpickedapickled , I am slowly realising there are many if us that experience this situation but dont feel able to share . In RL I am too embarrassed to say my sweet little DM has a nasty streak, saved just for me, and would feel i was betraying her if i did. She has been financially generous( nothing lifechanging ),
in the past to my family but I now wish I hadn't accepted her gifts as I feel they were payment to put up with her toxicity for life .
My DM does suffer from anxiety and depression and has done for many years but has made no effort to help herself .I feel sorry she is lonely and is now too frail to get out independently but like you I feel , ( am made to feel) guilty about going away, even for a short break . I haven't had a full week away for a few years now as there always seems to be some " crisis " just before I go .
Sending much love and understanding to you .

You’re feeling guilty because she has spent your entire life installing that guilt and fear in you. She will be fully aware that you feel too guilty to tell her to fuck off and that’s why she tells you not to do anything you’ll feel guilty about; so she can reinforce that sense of guilt. She isn’t giving you valuable life advice. She’s maintaining the status quo. At some point, she’s going to die. That’s unavoidable for all of us. Does that mean she potentially gets to spend the next 20 years tearing bits off you until she goes? What will be left of you?

You have to work on the basis that it’s her who is in the wrong. Every single time. It doesn’t matter what you say, or what you do, or how you respond to her. It is always going to be her who has caused it, not you.

Essentially, she’s never going to change. So if you want a different result, then you have to respond to her differently. Ideally, that would be you cutting her off and going nc, but you’ll have to be ready to do that or it won’t work. And she’ll never cut contact with you because you are all she has. Your brother might phone her, but he clearly doesn’t give a shit about her. You are the only person she gets to expel all of her bile and poison onto. And she knows this, which is why she’s making an effort with the birthday gifts; so she can wind you back in and treat you like shit again. Until you’re ready to cut her off, my advice to you is to treat her exactly like you would treat a naughty toddler. Obviously you can’t put her on the naughty step, but if she starts winding you up over the phone, say ‘ok mum, I think this is enough for today. I love you, I’ll talk to you tomorrow’. And hang up before she can reply. If she starts sending you horrible texts, reply once only and say ‘ok mum, I’m switching my phone off now. I love you. If you need anything before tomorrow, phone brother and he can sort it out for you’. And then do not even open any further texts from her. Don’t negotiate with her. Over anything. Don’t explain your reasoning for doing something a particular way or time. She will always argue with you over it. The only response should be, ‘that doesn’t work for me mum. I can do it Tuesday or you can phone brother and see if he’s available to do it any sooner for you. Let me know what you decide’. And then put the phone down or walk out of the room. Reward good behaviour with attention. Punish bad behaviour by withdrawing. If she’s at your house, then a ‘Right, that’s enough for today I think. Let’s get you back home’. If she gets nasty, then a ‘no mum, we don’t talk to people like that. And if you carry on, then nobody is going to want to spend any time with you’. You have all the power here. You’re strong, capable and kind and you have a family who love you. She has none of that. Her power lays in the fact that she has tricked you into thinking you have no power.

If she senses she’s losing her grip on you, then she’s going to do whatever she can to regain that grip. And that’s likely to include making you fearful that she’s going to die any moment and how terrible are you going to feel when she goes and you didn’t let her treat you like shit beforehand. A big sigh and a ‘I don’t think I’ve got anything to feel guilty about mum, and neither does DH, DD, my friends or my counsellor’.

I wish you the strength to cut her off permanently, so you can start putting your little family who love you, above this twisted and bitter woman.