To think we’ve lost the concept of men being men and women being women, and society is worse off for it?

[ThatNimbleKhakiAnt]

Traditional gender roles may not have been perfect but at least they provided structure. Now everything is blurred and instead of progress, we just have confusion. Are relationships stronger? Are people happier? I don’t think so. It feels like in trying to fix things, we’ve just made everything messier.

AIBU to think we’ve lost something valuable?

Yeah, I knew this was gonna be a one post thing

If the OP could come back and clarify whether she means 20 years ago or 70 years ago, that would be helpful.

I can see most people are going for about 70 years ago, but I can't get my head around someone really wanting that!

What are you confused about? Maybe we could help you understand it.

My husband and I are not confused we just both do our bit like the grown adults we are, parents who both work and both do things around the house how is that confusing?

I don't think this went at all how you expected 🤔

Do you also support Reform? They’re always on about traditional roles and the good ‘ol’ days.

Agree. Opinions have to have a solid, reasonable basis to be considered valid. If somebody wants her/his opinion to be considered valid s/he should be prepared to defend it with sound reasoning.
The idea that all opinions are equal is an example of an opinion that can't be defended with a good argument. That's because it's baseless.

No, that isn't why she shouldn't be expected to provide. It's because she has a mental health problem. If you're ill and unable to work you should not be expected to be a provider. The answer is better social support for people who are ill/disabled. This situation really has nothing to do with gender roles, it's about the way people with mental health problems are harshly judged and their illnesses are not considered legitimate. I'm assuming, of course, that her depression is severe enough that she can't manage to work. Plenty of ignorant people don't even believe mental illness can prevent you from working.

Why would anyone be better off with traditional gender roles?

I feel that she is depressed because she doesn't have upfront nursery fees and she is feeling guilty about leaving her baby with a stranger during work hours, and no one wants to give her a job anyway. Anyway I agree with you. I was out of work for a while and people were judgmental even though I had PTSD culminating in a psychotic break. Mental health matters.

Progress can create a feeling of confusion at times. That's because progress requires things to be new for a while. That's not a bad thing, actually.

I’m a woman, 45 and I absolutely agree.
I like the fact my husband is masculine. We share chores, but he mows the lawn, puts up pictures, takes out the bins, cleans the toilet. Meanwhile I cook, iron, vacuum etc

I like to ensure I’m in makeup daily. My hair is nice and I’m dressed in something attractive. He dresses smart, shirt, tie, ensures he’s clean and fresh. I’ve never said no to hanky panky - it makes me happy to make him happy and he enjoys making me happy too.

He always drives. I like to read my books in the car on journeys. I dislike driving.

I do the shopping, but he will escort me to lift anything heavy and carry the bags.

His job is traditionally male. My job is traditionally female. Although rather fortunately we earn about the same, him marginally more.

So we actively try to live traditional roles. If I could afford to give up work and be a housewife, in lipstick and a pinafore, I would in a heartbeat. I very much enjoy traditional roles as does my husband and it works. We’ve been together since we were 15. Although I think it spoils life a little to have to get up and go to work, when I could be making myself pretty, going to the gym, cleaning the house and cooking a wonderful dinner each evening for him to come home to.

The idea of equality of the sex’s was noble, but these days, it just means everyone has to struggle a bit more. I’d rather go back to the 50’s.

I don’t look down on anyone who chooses a different way of life. Each to their own of course, but I can’t imagine not embracing my femininity as a woman and I would find it very unattractive for my husband to be less masculine.

Men still think this bar the "stick to your traditional roles", they just voice it less. Men don't listen to female professionals unless backed into it by necessity, I doubt many would hire female manual labour and I don't think many would take advice from women.

I agree with the OP to a degree. Marital rape and being able to own a bank account are obviously essential, and I think men powertripping led to women wanting more rights so they got what they deserved, but I think the world is taking advantage of equality and giving us similar problems in that women and girls feel compelled to sexualise themselves and put themselves in unfulfilling/mentally damaging situations/relationships even when there isn't a man doing it. There's also the abuse of female labour now we need two per household working to sustain a family while the woman does womanwork regardless if she doesn't want her child covered in food for school and laundry piling up.

Why should both adults not financially contribute to a household? And if woman work and so all the household things they have a problem with their partner so quit wringing and do something about it

How many woman think woman, either mothers or grandmothers only role in life is to have children and run a household? Man can think what they want woman do not have to go along with it

The more I see on here the more it am starting to think woman are not as intelligent as men, why? Because they let men and society think for them it is in their control to do what they want they chose not too

I think supposedly “traditional roles” were discriminatory and didn’t represent much of human history where male hunter gatherers did their share of child rearing taking young boys out with them as a community group rather than expecting mum to raise all the children single handedly.

Recent equality progress has helped almost everyone apart from small minded domineering white men which is why we see so many of them desperately trying to assert themselves now.
The trans debacle was a blip that needed to be tackled to go back to acceptance of a minority group rather than promotion of a mental health disorder to exploit young and vulnerable people.

Huh. What traditional gender roles would those be, then, OP? DH grew up in a very traditional, matriarchal culture, but I bet that's not what you're meaning.

Yes agree

I just spent a lovely day with my friend's son who has been an absolute gem in a difficult time. He wears lipstick and false eyelashes.

And the really interesting thing is that so many anglophones think that you have such a superior advanced culture and everywhere else abuses and represses women. (Smugly written from a country with a female president who also also a Nobel prize in ecology

I'm glad times have moved on. Does your husband give you housekeeping money and chain you to the sink.

I think they've invaded MN. You get a lot of trad-wife style posts that post v late UK time and sound American. They post obsessively on any thread that criticises men/complains about sexist attitudes. I think they want to indoctrinate the UK.

One woman's experience isn't evidence. There are as many women who love going back to work. What's important though is she gets equal support at home. Often what happens is they're expected to work, do all the childcare and housework AND massage his ego. No wonder those women get depressed.

Equally it may suit some families to have a SAHP. That role should equally be respected with decent spending money, support in the evenings/weekends etc.

The issue is that gender expectations are still too rigid for men and women, and some men and some women take advantage of that.

I don’t agree that gender roles should be enforced or expected. The core role in a society is the individual, and people should be free and supported to take the roles they like.

But there are a few fair points that often get wilfully ignored in this debate I think:

i) there are genuine differences in trait and preference distributions, so in a truly free and equal society we should not expect gender parity in everything.

ii) many (not all) people who argue for women seem to reflexively adopt the male pattern as the ‘correct’ one. The jobs where men predominate are the ones women ‘should’ be doing. Men’s pattern of assertiveness is what women ‘should’ be like, etc. It often feels that men are the only ones humaning right it their view.

iii) there is definitely a pressure on women who end up expected to do it all (career and family), in a way that doesn’t happen to men. So that’s one cost that gets paid.

iv) there is certainly also comfort in defined societal roles (but at a cost that I, as a liberal, am not willing to pay if it means curtailing rights and possibilities). And individual is not the only important unit in society. A philosopher king whose only goal were harmony and cohesion (not also, say, freedom) would probably opt for somewhat defined gender roles. It’s an interesting question what a philosopher king only concerned about sum happiness would choose.

So I don’t agree with OP but I do think there’s a better version of the argument that can be made. Mary Harrington is interesting on this kind of stuff.

Presumably the argument rests on the (true!) idea that these two groups are different, and on average the individuals in them have different strengths and interests and roles.

If your country were invaded, would it matter if you sent only the men to war and kept the women home to look after the families and production, or vice versa (only the women to war, the men all to stay home)? Or would the two outcomes be the same?

(I do realise there are other options, but I think examining this question first is helpful).

Absolutely spot on 👏🏻

That’s very interesting. Are there any advantages to a matriarchal society?

(Genuine question. I’m certain there are advantages historically otherwise none would exist. But in the modern day I mean).