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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we’ve lost the concept of men being men and women being women, and society is worse off for it?

294 replies

ThatNimbleKhakiAnt · 08/08/2025 18:33

Traditional gender roles may not have been perfect but at least they provided structure. Now everything is blurred and instead of progress, we just have confusion. Are relationships stronger? Are people happier? I don’t think so. It feels like in trying to fix things, we’ve just made everything messier.

AIBU to think we’ve lost something valuable?

OP posts:
knottywig · 10/08/2025 20:12

ThankYouNigel · 10/08/2025 14:36

Oh please. A servant is not married to those they do this work for, a housewife does everything freely out of love.

How many do you know in real life? You do realise they have complete autonomy over their day and do exactly what they want, when they want? To a far greater degree than capitalist slaves?

Freely out of love- nope, we do it because no other buggar in house will do it! It’s not done for love, it’s done for necessity. We do it because the misogynistic society we live in labels it woman’s work and so men (not all men for those with fragile egos who can make sweeping judgments about women but can’t stand sweeping judgments about men!) don’t/won't do it. Don’t even get me started on the weaponised incompetence men (nam) use, because it’s amazing how men are perfectly capable of holding down jobs and following instructions there and for things they want to do but …

MuckFusk · 10/08/2025 21:54

Livelovebehappy · 10/08/2025 14:16

Have you read some of the comments on here? People absolutely frothing at the mouth about it...

I have and my point still stands. It is not wrong to make judgements about other people's opinions and to express disagreement. How rudely some people choose to express their disagreement does not alter that principle. What you are talking about is the way they express it, not the judgement itself.

Livelovebehappy · 10/08/2025 23:16

MuckFusk · 10/08/2025 21:54

I have and my point still stands. It is not wrong to make judgements about other people's opinions and to express disagreement. How rudely some people choose to express their disagreement does not alter that principle. What you are talking about is the way they express it, not the judgement itself.

Of course, everyone is entitled to hold an opinion on anything they want. But to specifically address someone about their choices is wrong, because if they have made a decision to run their life with their husband as they wish to, providing it doesn’t interfere with mine or your life, then we should respect their choice and leave them to get on with it. We’re all different, and should be left to do what makes us happy. If someone is being forced into traditional gender/wife roles by a controlling partner, then of course we’re here to offer advice.

MuckFusk · 10/08/2025 23:53

Livelovebehappy · 10/08/2025 23:16

Of course, everyone is entitled to hold an opinion on anything they want. But to specifically address someone about their choices is wrong, because if they have made a decision to run their life with their husband as they wish to, providing it doesn’t interfere with mine or your life, then we should respect their choice and leave them to get on with it. We’re all different, and should be left to do what makes us happy. If someone is being forced into traditional gender/wife roles by a controlling partner, then of course we’re here to offer advice.

The OP was soliciting opinions by starting this thread. People didn't just comment on her choices out of the blue. She asked if her belief was unreasonable and was told that it is. That's what an AIBU is for.
It's entirely appropriate to comment on other people's choices if they open up the subject for discussion in an AIBU.

Scottishskifun · 11/08/2025 10:45

Lifeofthepartay · 09/08/2025 12:51

You probably say that because your husband is one of the good ones. A lot of men are just another child to raise that only wants to contribute 50% financially too. And no, is not the woman's fault for not choosing correctly. What I see on the dating scene (not first hand) is that no one wants to offer the bare minimum either....

It's not a case of being "one of the good ones" it's a case of not having a low bar or making excuses for them.
Some women seem to want to fix it or oh I will just do it as its quicker. This just creates an endless cycle of man children!

I was always upfront with my DH from the early days that I will never accept doing the lions share be it house work, financial or later on children and if he wasn't up for that then he should walk away.

When we discussed having children it was initially from a financial aspect of both saving enough to do so. We contribute financially now based on a ratio of income so I pay more because I earn significantly more but also my DH is part time to care for our youngest a day week.

Now we have 2 boys and from the age of 2 they both get age relevant chores to do (6 and 3).
I have friends who have man children husbands but the vast majority of my friends don't because they also have conversations and address issues rather then just letting it all slide.

ChildFreeAndOhSoHappy · 11/08/2025 11:35

ThankYouNigel · 10/08/2025 14:41

You do realise that many women who ‘opt out’ are often very highly educated and have left very high paying careers? Certainly extremely capable of thinking for themselves.

Google ‘Missing Mothers’ for more on this from the government (they are aware 😂)- plenty of teacher Mums have decided for themselves they’d rather be at home looking after their own actual beloved children than spending the majority of their previous time with those of other people 👏🏻

Maybe that's fine for them, but the OP is saying she misses this for everyone. Not every woman would be happy giving up a lucrative career, putting their brain in a box and staying at home all day. I'm pretty sure I would kill myself if forced into a position like that. Hence why forcing people into gender roles that dont work or fit for everyone or even a high percentage of the population is bad and getting rid of this antiquated notion is good. You do you but being nothing more than a stay at home mom and wife would be my personal nightmare. See how that works?

TaupeLemur · 11/08/2025 12:20

ThatNimbleKhakiAnt · 08/08/2025 18:33

Traditional gender roles may not have been perfect but at least they provided structure. Now everything is blurred and instead of progress, we just have confusion. Are relationships stronger? Are people happier? I don’t think so. It feels like in trying to fix things, we’ve just made everything messier.

AIBU to think we’ve lost something valuable?

You’re hilarious OP! You sound like one of our neighbours ( in her 30s so not old) who couldn’t get her head around the fact we are a 2
mum household and keep saying things like ‘ but who does the bins?’ And ‘who sorts the car for MOTs?’ Etc and offering her - frankly pretty useless - lump of a husband in case we needed any ‘man’ jobs done.
The same husband who seems to be happy watching his wife juggle a job, the majority of anything to do with their child, look after anything to do with both sets of their parents, do the housework, while he ‘rehearses’ with his ‘band’ on weekends and goes to the football…

Lifeofthepartay · 11/08/2025 12:42

Scottishskifun · 11/08/2025 10:45

It's not a case of being "one of the good ones" it's a case of not having a low bar or making excuses for them.
Some women seem to want to fix it or oh I will just do it as its quicker. This just creates an endless cycle of man children!

I was always upfront with my DH from the early days that I will never accept doing the lions share be it house work, financial or later on children and if he wasn't up for that then he should walk away.

When we discussed having children it was initially from a financial aspect of both saving enough to do so. We contribute financially now based on a ratio of income so I pay more because I earn significantly more but also my DH is part time to care for our youngest a day week.

Now we have 2 boys and from the age of 2 they both get age relevant chores to do (6 and 3).
I have friends who have man children husbands but the vast majority of my friends don't because they also have conversations and address issues rather then just letting it all slide.

I don't know. I think you are still putting the blame in the woman. We have achieved a balance in our relationship but like you said it has been difficult. The early years when the kids were little and I was the default parent were very tiring and there was a lot of friction with my husband. Through conversations (as in regularly 😂) we managed to power through but I also see cases where this just doesn't happen. I think I there is an element of luck too.

Motheranddaughter · 11/08/2025 13:10

I could never have given up my career and it has done no harm to my DC that I was not a SAHM
Im fact the opposite
It people want to do it that’s their call, but there should be no state assistance

TaupeLemur · 11/08/2025 13:41

A world in which all the financial pressure, and power, was on the man and women were financial dependent on men is not one I ever want to see again.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 11/08/2025 13:46

Well, it looks like the OP just chucked a grenade and then didn't bother coming back, so not sure that we can assume that her post was made in good faith.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't really care if other women want to play at being 1950s housewives. As long as I'm not expected to pay for their lifestyle choices, I think it's their own free choice to live as they wish.

Certainly wouldn't want that life for me or for my dd, but what strangers choose to do doesn't bother me.

Scottishskifun · 11/08/2025 13:48

Lifeofthepartay · 11/08/2025 12:42

I don't know. I think you are still putting the blame in the woman. We have achieved a balance in our relationship but like you said it has been difficult. The early years when the kids were little and I was the default parent were very tiring and there was a lot of friction with my husband. Through conversations (as in regularly 😂) we managed to power through but I also see cases where this just doesn't happen. I think I there is an element of luck too.

One of the favourite sayings on MN is when someone shows you who they really are believe them..... many people in relationships (men and women) simply don't and overlook, make excuses for or stick their fingers in their ears when it comes down to aspects. I don't blame women for a man's behaviour but nor do I think the behaviour should go unchallenged.

I have a small number friends who after years have stopped making excuses for their crappy husbands and instead seethe with resentment.

Relationships are about communication I was just early on in being upfront but if people don't communicate and discuss expectations then people will default to what's easiest that's human nature.

In our marriage we play to our strengths - I do most of the cooking because I used to work in kitchens so can cook quickly from scratch. My DH does the bulk of the mornings with our children and brekfast because he's a early riser.

My husband gets paraded, used as an example etc with a few friends or gets told by strangers oh isnt it lovely that your babysitting your children sonyour wife csn have some time......which annoys me no end as he's not exceptional he's just not rubbish and works as a team and take care of our children equally.

I think too many people are conditioned to "keep the peace". It's not about blame its about realising what your own boundaries are.

Lifeofthepartay · 11/08/2025 14:19

Scottishskifun · 11/08/2025 13:48

One of the favourite sayings on MN is when someone shows you who they really are believe them..... many people in relationships (men and women) simply don't and overlook, make excuses for or stick their fingers in their ears when it comes down to aspects. I don't blame women for a man's behaviour but nor do I think the behaviour should go unchallenged.

I have a small number friends who after years have stopped making excuses for their crappy husbands and instead seethe with resentment.

Relationships are about communication I was just early on in being upfront but if people don't communicate and discuss expectations then people will default to what's easiest that's human nature.

In our marriage we play to our strengths - I do most of the cooking because I used to work in kitchens so can cook quickly from scratch. My DH does the bulk of the mornings with our children and brekfast because he's a early riser.

My husband gets paraded, used as an example etc with a few friends or gets told by strangers oh isnt it lovely that your babysitting your children sonyour wife csn have some time......which annoys me no end as he's not exceptional he's just not rubbish and works as a team and take care of our children equally.

I think too many people are conditioned to "keep the peace". It's not about blame its about realising what your own boundaries are.

I agree with a lot of that. People try to keep the peace and end up harbouring so much resentment 😰

Petitchat · 11/08/2025 14:27

@Scottishskifun

I know what you mean about DH being paraded.
I have an illness and DH looks after me. Of course I'm thankful and I would do exactly the same for him.

However, I go for regular treatment at the hospital and the nurses make a big fuss of him because he brings me tea and toast every morning for breakfast.

The nurses say they wish THEY could get tea and toast every morning.
It's annoying because if I could get it myself I would.

And I often wonder if it was the other way round and a woman was getting the breakfast every morning, would it even get mentioned?
I think NOT, It would just be expected.....

RobertaFirmino · 11/08/2025 14:29

When I was 16, I thought I might have been a transman. I poured it all out to my sociology tutor at college who asked me if I was simply rejecting gender-based stereotypes. We hadn't yet looked feminism in class so he gave me a couple of books to read and it turned out my tutor was spot on. All that anguish and upset I was going through with no clue that the reason for my discomfort was simple.

So no, 'men are men and women are women' can fuck right off.

ChickenChow · 11/08/2025 14:29

What do you mean OP?!

ThankYouNigel · 11/08/2025 16:50

ChildFreeAndOhSoHappy · 11/08/2025 11:35

Maybe that's fine for them, but the OP is saying she misses this for everyone. Not every woman would be happy giving up a lucrative career, putting their brain in a box and staying at home all day. I'm pretty sure I would kill myself if forced into a position like that. Hence why forcing people into gender roles that dont work or fit for everyone or even a high percentage of the population is bad and getting rid of this antiquated notion is good. You do you but being nothing more than a stay at home mom and wife would be my personal nightmare. See how that works?

Edited

Your rudeness towards SAHPs is evident, and unnecessary. They don’t put their brains in boxes, what a horrible, nasty thing to say. Many are very well read, study and volunteer for many highly respectable organisations which definitely use their brains (do you personally have any idea how much work school governors do? Cruse/Samaritans volunteers? They undertake months and months of training and ongoing CPD). Many also home-educate, and so constantly use their brains to teach their own children across their entire childhood- or are you saying teachers don’t have brains too? Educating certainly doesn’t just happen in claustrophobic classrooms!

Perhaps start talking to a few more people in real life, it would make you less judgmental. It is a big mistake to under-estimate anyone generally.

Ashley911 · 11/08/2025 16:54

ThankYouNigel · 11/08/2025 16:50

Your rudeness towards SAHPs is evident, and unnecessary. They don’t put their brains in boxes, what a horrible, nasty thing to say. Many are very well read, study and volunteer for many highly respectable organisations which definitely use their brains (do you personally have any idea how much work school governors do? Cruse/Samaritans volunteers? They undertake months and months of training and ongoing CPD). Many also home-educate, and so constantly use their brains to teach their own children across their entire childhood- or are you saying teachers don’t have brains too? Educating certainly doesn’t just happen in claustrophobic classrooms!

Perhaps start talking to a few more people in real life, it would make you less judgmental. It is a big mistake to under-estimate anyone generally.

It's also completely missing that a section of those mothers would have been working at jobs where the "brain in a box" thing would still happen.

kim204 · 11/08/2025 17:35

Being a SAHM is the best thing ever as far as I'm concerned, but prettying myself up for my husband, doting on him and never saying no to 'hanky panky' is just grim IMO.

It's great that women have the choice now but I think that women working has led to housing costs going through the roof as most people having two incomes has enabled it to happen - and i think that has been a huge negative. It has resulted in the tide having to go the other way and now many women are forced to work just to keep a roof over their and their kids heads with no opportunity to be a SAHM.

I for one think that women having less choices is always a shame.

JHound · 11/08/2025 17:49

kim204 · 11/08/2025 17:35

Being a SAHM is the best thing ever as far as I'm concerned, but prettying myself up for my husband, doting on him and never saying no to 'hanky panky' is just grim IMO.

It's great that women have the choice now but I think that women working has led to housing costs going through the roof as most people having two incomes has enabled it to happen - and i think that has been a huge negative. It has resulted in the tide having to go the other way and now many women are forced to work just to keep a roof over their and their kids heads with no opportunity to be a SAHM.

I for one think that women having less choices is always a shame.

How do you change that though? Women don’t
seem to have any desire en masse to return to the home. As a single woman earning my own income is vitally important to me.

I also am not sure it’s so simple as women not working outside the home was not always the case (historically working class women tended to do paid work.)

Banks did not HAVE to take two incomes into accounts when lending.

childofthe607080s · 11/08/2025 17:53

Two incomes didn’t lead to house price problems - selling off council homes triggered it as it allowed rents to rise out of control

MuckFusk · 11/08/2025 22:54

Scottishskifun · 11/08/2025 10:45

It's not a case of being "one of the good ones" it's a case of not having a low bar or making excuses for them.
Some women seem to want to fix it or oh I will just do it as its quicker. This just creates an endless cycle of man children!

I was always upfront with my DH from the early days that I will never accept doing the lions share be it house work, financial or later on children and if he wasn't up for that then he should walk away.

When we discussed having children it was initially from a financial aspect of both saving enough to do so. We contribute financially now based on a ratio of income so I pay more because I earn significantly more but also my DH is part time to care for our youngest a day week.

Now we have 2 boys and from the age of 2 they both get age relevant chores to do (6 and 3).
I have friends who have man children husbands but the vast majority of my friends don't because they also have conversations and address issues rather then just letting it all slide.

This hinges on a presumption that when you have those conversations, your partner is being honest with you. Many of them are not, which is why women often get a shock after they have the first child. Before that the man was doing his share or close to it, but that stops when a child enters the picture because he figures the woman is stuck and can't leave him. He also doesn't like the increased workload a child brings. It's common for men to do an about face once children enter the picture. There can be no warning of this, no red flags. They are excellent liars because they have convinced themselves they believe in equality and sharing domestic duties. But when the rubber hits the road, they really don't, or at a minimum they only do in theory and it isn't important to them. So the choice then becomes leaving when you've just given birth or staying and putting up with it. There is no third option of somehow making him do it. There is nothing you can say which will convince an entitled person to accept a responsibility he doesn't want.
It is indeed about being lucky enough to find a man who is honest about his intentions and has the integrity to do what he promised he would.

So it's not as simple as you make it seem. It sounds like you make a good income, which makes it easier to leave if your partner isn't pulling his weight. Your partner must know that, which could have factored into his decision making. Leaving often isn't a viable option for low wage women with children, so of course they put up with lazy men. It's not about having a low bar, it's about having no good options. Men know that they can leverage your fear of being destitute and your kids suffering to get away with being lazy, even with being abusive.

There are some women who do start with their bar set at sub-basement level, but more often they have to lower it just to keep their heads above water financially. Raising children on one low (or even one average) wage is incredibly difficult and stressful, much more so than staying and just doing the housework yourself.

There is no one size fits all set of rules that prevents being taken advantage of by a partner. It would be foolhardy to think we are immune because we did x, y or z early in the marriage. People tend to be unwilling to acknowledge the huge role luck plays in their success at anything. We want to believe we earned it all. It's a cognitive trick we play on ourselves, because acknowledging we could lose it all because of bad luck is so frightening. However, it is the reality. Your husband could become radicalized by the manosphere, get involved with another woman, start abusing substances, any number of other things which would affect his commitment to his family and to equality within it. Sorry to to say so and I hope nothing like that ever happens to you, but I don't believe it's in anyone's interest to be complacent.

SouthLondonMum22 · 11/08/2025 23:00

MuckFusk · 11/08/2025 22:54

This hinges on a presumption that when you have those conversations, your partner is being honest with you. Many of them are not, which is why women often get a shock after they have the first child. Before that the man was doing his share or close to it, but that stops when a child enters the picture because he figures the woman is stuck and can't leave him. He also doesn't like the increased workload a child brings. It's common for men to do an about face once children enter the picture. There can be no warning of this, no red flags. They are excellent liars because they have convinced themselves they believe in equality and sharing domestic duties. But when the rubber hits the road, they really don't, or at a minimum they only do in theory and it isn't important to them. So the choice then becomes leaving when you've just given birth or staying and putting up with it. There is no third option of somehow making him do it. There is nothing you can say which will convince an entitled person to accept a responsibility he doesn't want.
It is indeed about being lucky enough to find a man who is honest about his intentions and has the integrity to do what he promised he would.

So it's not as simple as you make it seem. It sounds like you make a good income, which makes it easier to leave if your partner isn't pulling his weight. Your partner must know that, which could have factored into his decision making. Leaving often isn't a viable option for low wage women with children, so of course they put up with lazy men. It's not about having a low bar, it's about having no good options. Men know that they can leverage your fear of being destitute and your kids suffering to get away with being lazy, even with being abusive.

There are some women who do start with their bar set at sub-basement level, but more often they have to lower it just to keep their heads above water financially. Raising children on one low (or even one average) wage is incredibly difficult and stressful, much more so than staying and just doing the housework yourself.

There is no one size fits all set of rules that prevents being taken advantage of by a partner. It would be foolhardy to think we are immune because we did x, y or z early in the marriage. People tend to be unwilling to acknowledge the huge role luck plays in their success at anything. We want to believe we earned it all. It's a cognitive trick we play on ourselves, because acknowledging we could lose it all because of bad luck is so frightening. However, it is the reality. Your husband could become radicalized by the manosphere, get involved with another woman, start abusing substances, any number of other things which would affect his commitment to his family and to equality within it. Sorry to to say so and I hope nothing like that ever happens to you, but I don't believe it's in anyone's interest to be complacent.

I understand where pp is coming from but also see your point too.

My issue is that far too often, a woman gets a shock after her first child as you said but instead of making plans to leave, has 2-3+ more children with him and then wonders why her life is so hard. Accepting low standards is definitely an issue and staying with a lazy man and having even more children with him isn't bad luck, it's making a choice.

MuckFusk · 11/08/2025 23:39

SouthLondonMum22 · 11/08/2025 23:00

I understand where pp is coming from but also see your point too.

My issue is that far too often, a woman gets a shock after her first child as you said but instead of making plans to leave, has 2-3+ more children with him and then wonders why her life is so hard. Accepting low standards is definitely an issue and staying with a lazy man and having even more children with him isn't bad luck, it's making a choice.

Yes, I would agree with that. She's making a choice to accept that he will continue to be lazy and have more children regardless, providing the children are either planned or the result of not using birth control. Unfortunately birth control does fail sometimes. I can see a lazy man also refusing to wear condoms, and some women can't use hormonal birth control or an intrauterine device because of the side effects. So they are stuck with inferior barrier forms of birth control, which would otherwise be highly effective if they were combined with a condom.

ChildFreeAndOhSoHappy · 12/08/2025 01:42

ThankYouNigel · 11/08/2025 16:50

Your rudeness towards SAHPs is evident, and unnecessary. They don’t put their brains in boxes, what a horrible, nasty thing to say. Many are very well read, study and volunteer for many highly respectable organisations which definitely use their brains (do you personally have any idea how much work school governors do? Cruse/Samaritans volunteers? They undertake months and months of training and ongoing CPD). Many also home-educate, and so constantly use their brains to teach their own children across their entire childhood- or are you saying teachers don’t have brains too? Educating certainly doesn’t just happen in claustrophobic classrooms!

Perhaps start talking to a few more people in real life, it would make you less judgmental. It is a big mistake to under-estimate anyone generally.

The friends I have who had careers that they worked hard for and then became mom's resented the thought of being a stay at home mom and went immediately back to work. Exact words, I will lose my mind if my life becomes house work and taking care of kids all day. The women I do know who have thrived at being stay at home moms are the ones when people ask, oh what does so and so do? And people say, oh she's a stay at home mom, everyone goes, ah yeah OK, like of course she is, she isn't actually qualified to do anything else. Not saying this is all of them, this is my experience and I know for a fact that it is something I would hate. But I guess you have loads of ceo and board level friends who gave up the the careers they worked their whole lives for to cook and clean and drive their kids around all day, sounds perfectly reasonable I mean, why wouldn't you give up money, respect and independence for vomit covered clothes, no money and no freedom.

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