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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we’ve lost the concept of men being men and women being women, and society is worse off for it?

294 replies

ThatNimbleKhakiAnt · 08/08/2025 18:33

Traditional gender roles may not have been perfect but at least they provided structure. Now everything is blurred and instead of progress, we just have confusion. Are relationships stronger? Are people happier? I don’t think so. It feels like in trying to fix things, we’ve just made everything messier.

AIBU to think we’ve lost something valuable?

OP posts:
ThankYouNigel · 12/08/2025 04:56

ChildFreeAndOhSoHappy · 12/08/2025 01:42

The friends I have who had careers that they worked hard for and then became mom's resented the thought of being a stay at home mom and went immediately back to work. Exact words, I will lose my mind if my life becomes house work and taking care of kids all day. The women I do know who have thrived at being stay at home moms are the ones when people ask, oh what does so and so do? And people say, oh she's a stay at home mom, everyone goes, ah yeah OK, like of course she is, she isn't actually qualified to do anything else. Not saying this is all of them, this is my experience and I know for a fact that it is something I would hate. But I guess you have loads of ceo and board level friends who gave up the the careers they worked their whole lives for to cook and clean and drive their kids around all day, sounds perfectly reasonable I mean, why wouldn't you give up money, respect and independence for vomit covered clothes, no money and no freedom.

Edited

To give your time, attention and emotional support to your own children who you chose to have, rather than prioritise money you don’t even need.

Nomorenonsense2025 · 12/08/2025 05:10

There have absolutely always been women who do not fit the roles society (men mainly) decided for them, did not want children, hated knitting, wanted to have a career and men who also did not fit the roles decided for them, hated beer, football, working full time.

And of course women have ALWAYS worked for pay, only a tiny proportion of incredibly privileged women were ever stay at home mothers who never worked for money.

Unfortunately we went from "women have a right to do as much as they can manage to do and it doesn't matter that they are the opposite sex" to "let's pretend women can fight with the strength of a man, carry a burning body from a building and are physically exactly the same as men in all ways".

So, no, there is no point at all in assigning roles to women and men, but what we do need to do is simply accept that while men and women ARE NOT THE SAME individuals all have a rise to their own strengths, whatever they may be without pushing the nonsensical and clearly untrue narrative that the two sexes are exactly the same and can perform exactly the same tasks.

Blind resumes and auditions for orchestras etc proved that women were being denied roles they deserved. So, as much as possible, the best outcome would be to give both sexes the same opportunities and let them compete fairly on merit in the fields where they can do so - without pretending that some things are simply possible if you are born male, or born female, and that cannot be changed.

JHound · 12/08/2025 13:47

MuckFusk · 11/08/2025 22:54

This hinges on a presumption that when you have those conversations, your partner is being honest with you. Many of them are not, which is why women often get a shock after they have the first child. Before that the man was doing his share or close to it, but that stops when a child enters the picture because he figures the woman is stuck and can't leave him. He also doesn't like the increased workload a child brings. It's common for men to do an about face once children enter the picture. There can be no warning of this, no red flags. They are excellent liars because they have convinced themselves they believe in equality and sharing domestic duties. But when the rubber hits the road, they really don't, or at a minimum they only do in theory and it isn't important to them. So the choice then becomes leaving when you've just given birth or staying and putting up with it. There is no third option of somehow making him do it. There is nothing you can say which will convince an entitled person to accept a responsibility he doesn't want.
It is indeed about being lucky enough to find a man who is honest about his intentions and has the integrity to do what he promised he would.

So it's not as simple as you make it seem. It sounds like you make a good income, which makes it easier to leave if your partner isn't pulling his weight. Your partner must know that, which could have factored into his decision making. Leaving often isn't a viable option for low wage women with children, so of course they put up with lazy men. It's not about having a low bar, it's about having no good options. Men know that they can leverage your fear of being destitute and your kids suffering to get away with being lazy, even with being abusive.

There are some women who do start with their bar set at sub-basement level, but more often they have to lower it just to keep their heads above water financially. Raising children on one low (or even one average) wage is incredibly difficult and stressful, much more so than staying and just doing the housework yourself.

There is no one size fits all set of rules that prevents being taken advantage of by a partner. It would be foolhardy to think we are immune because we did x, y or z early in the marriage. People tend to be unwilling to acknowledge the huge role luck plays in their success at anything. We want to believe we earned it all. It's a cognitive trick we play on ourselves, because acknowledging we could lose it all because of bad luck is so frightening. However, it is the reality. Your husband could become radicalized by the manosphere, get involved with another woman, start abusing substances, any number of other things which would affect his commitment to his family and to equality within it. Sorry to to say so and I hope nothing like that ever happens to you, but I don't believe it's in anyone's interest to be complacent.

This EXACTLY describes my friend’s situation. Equal partner pre marriage. Equal partner post wedding day.

Once the first child arrived he stopped everything he had previously done. He assumed a marriage and children would be sufficient for her to feel stuck with him and not leave. He was wrong.

JHound · 12/08/2025 13:51

SouthLondonMum22 · 11/08/2025 23:00

I understand where pp is coming from but also see your point too.

My issue is that far too often, a woman gets a shock after her first child as you said but instead of making plans to leave, has 2-3+ more children with him and then wonders why her life is so hard. Accepting low standards is definitely an issue and staying with a lazy man and having even more children with him isn't bad luck, it's making a choice.

My friend had another child with her useless husband but this was because she knew she planned to leave him and did not want to deal with two sets of dads. She finished her family
and then left and is a very happy and comfortable single mom.

SugarSoiree · 13/08/2025 09:43

JHound · 12/08/2025 13:51

My friend had another child with her useless husband but this was because she knew she planned to leave him and did not want to deal with two sets of dads. She finished her family
and then left and is a very happy and comfortable single mom.

Wow. Deliberately having a child with someone you are planning on leaving is really shitty.

If a man used a woman to get a child in that way there would be uproar!

JHound · 13/08/2025 13:59

SugarSoiree · 13/08/2025 09:43

Wow. Deliberately having a child with someone you are planning on leaving is really shitty.

If a man used a woman to get a child in that way there would be uproar!

Ok.

SugarSoiree · 13/08/2025 15:41

JHound · 13/08/2025 13:59

Ok.

👍

SouthLondonMum22 · 13/08/2025 16:11

SugarSoiree · 13/08/2025 09:43

Wow. Deliberately having a child with someone you are planning on leaving is really shitty.

If a man used a woman to get a child in that way there would be uproar!

I agree.

SleeplessInWherever · 13/08/2025 17:57

SouthLondonMum22 · 13/08/2025 16:11

I agree.

Quite common, unfortunately.

I know someone who stayed with her ex partner for 4 years and had 2 children with him, and then left when the 2nd was a matter of months old.

She knew she didn’t want him before she fell pregnant with the 1st, she just very specifically wanted 2 kids before a certain age and it was a means to that end.

MuckFusk · 13/08/2025 18:06

JHound · 12/08/2025 13:47

This EXACTLY describes my friend’s situation. Equal partner pre marriage. Equal partner post wedding day.

Once the first child arrived he stopped everything he had previously done. He assumed a marriage and children would be sufficient for her to feel stuck with him and not leave. He was wrong.

Good on her for leaving the prick. How stupid of him to think he had her trapped.

MuckFusk · 13/08/2025 18:10

SugarSoiree · 13/08/2025 09:43

Wow. Deliberately having a child with someone you are planning on leaving is really shitty.

If a man used a woman to get a child in that way there would be uproar!

They do, except they don't want to raise kids. They wait until you've done all that work to leave. This is what really happens when men hit middle age and dump their wives, not a "midlife crisis" which statistically isn't even a thing.
I agree that it's awful either way.

JHound · 13/08/2025 20:43

MuckFusk · 13/08/2025 18:06

Good on her for leaving the prick. How stupid of him to think he had her trapped.

Yep.

She did exactly the right thing.

He decided to shift character and so she left him. And I also think her deciding she was already tied to him via a child so better a second with him instead of a second with a new man makes perfect sense.

If he wanted to remain married he should have been a good husband.

JHound · 13/08/2025 20:45

MuckFusk · 13/08/2025 18:10

They do, except they don't want to raise kids. They wait until you've done all that work to leave. This is what really happens when men hit middle age and dump their wives, not a "midlife crisis" which statistically isn't even a thing.
I agree that it's awful either way.

I also wouldn’t think a man was shitty for wanting all kids in one place. (Except in the man’s case he tends to stick the woman with the child rearing.)
Lots of people need to strategise their departure and I will never feel sorry for a terrible partner who gets left.

JHound · 13/08/2025 20:49

SleeplessInWherever · 13/08/2025 17:57

Quite common, unfortunately.

I know someone who stayed with her ex partner for 4 years and had 2 children with him, and then left when the 2nd was a matter of months old.

She knew she didn’t want him before she fell pregnant with the 1st, she just very specifically wanted 2 kids before a certain age and it was a means to that end.

That’s not the same at all.

My friend would happily have spent the next 40 years + (and have even more children) with her husband had he remained the man she married.

Instead once her maternity leave was over it became crystal clear she would have to accept
parenting her husband and the man she thought she married never existed.

SleeplessInWherever · 13/08/2025 20:58

JHound · 13/08/2025 20:49

That’s not the same at all.

My friend would happily have spent the next 40 years + (and have even more children) with her husband had he remained the man she married.

Instead once her maternity leave was over it became crystal clear she would have to accept
parenting her husband and the man she thought she married never existed.

No, that’s fair enough. Leaving man-babies is always a positive - I did the exact same thing.

I’m just not sure I could have the second with a man I now knew wasn’t who I married. I’d have probably stopped at 1, with that man, and just had the one child.

SouthLondonMum22 · 14/08/2025 00:50

SleeplessInWherever · 13/08/2025 20:58

No, that’s fair enough. Leaving man-babies is always a positive - I did the exact same thing.

I’m just not sure I could have the second with a man I now knew wasn’t who I married. I’d have probably stopped at 1, with that man, and just had the one child.

I feel the same way. Doesn't feel right to the child either, especially if he isn't a good father.

Starling7 · 14/08/2025 00:56

Yes! We need to go back to women.being the property of their husbands and having no rights! Ah those rosy bygone simple days

MuckFusk · 14/08/2025 03:58

JHound · 13/08/2025 20:45

I also wouldn’t think a man was shitty for wanting all kids in one place. (Except in the man’s case he tends to stick the woman with the child rearing.)
Lots of people need to strategise their departure and I will never feel sorry for a terrible partner who gets left.

The problem is that it isn't just terrible partners who get left. Terrible partners tend to cheat and monkey branch onto somebody shiny and new who doesn't yet know how awful they are.

JHound · 14/08/2025 11:38

MuckFusk · 14/08/2025 03:58

The problem is that it isn't just terrible partners who get left. Terrible partners tend to cheat and monkey branch onto somebody shiny and new who doesn't yet know how awful they are.

That’s sad but not a reason to stay with a terrible partner.

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