To think that, under the threat of "Let the war begin", there should be specific laws against male's entering female private spaces (and vice versa)

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

After being told they will not be allowed to enter female toilets, changing rooms, clubs and other private sexed spaces, men have vowed to "fight" or be arrested “multiple times”

https://archive.ph/tdkd0

"Let the war begin. Fingers crossed. You need to fight for all of us globally. It’s a war."

I think it is reasonable to have a specific crime for this sort of violation of rights and privacy, rather than Outraging public decency, Voyeurism, Exposure/ indecent exposure.

It seems clear that without firm dealing with, men are going to violate these spaces again and again.

If that's the case why is it that some trans women DO use male facilities?

There is nothing on this earth to prevent these men from using the correct facilities for their own sex.

Men will be excluded from female spaces under the law. They should absolutely not be using them. However, as people have said, this is a matter of civil law not criminal law so it will be sometimes be difficult to stop men who are determined to violate women’s privacy and dignity, as it is with any determined men.

It is not open to men to use women’s spaces if they feel like it. If they do so they are knowingly crossing a line.

I asked primark and they were very evasive about their definition of women. They appear to have TWAW so they have no protected single sex changing rooms even if that’s what the labels state

Lots of you will remember Tandora from the Sandie Peggie thread. One sensible MNetter made a separate thread for them, to stop them derailing that thread.

Tandora’s position is that men who say they are women are women, full stop, no debate, so stop frothing etc. You can’t argue with the cult mind, it’s zealotry & a hard core belief system.

The SC ruling makes no difference to people like Tandora, they have a belief system which makes them dismissive of the law & the rights of others. They don’t want a debate, they want to scold & cheerlead for men.

So best to ignore. Every thread they’re on they use the same tactic, reminds me of a toddler. Except toddlers are charming and have an understandable ignorance of reality.

And a million other threads.

Me too.

I sometimes wonder if people who feel otherwise have ever actually met any transpeople.

I have @LakieLadyand have also met plenty of other men. I don’t want any men in female only spaces, regardless of their personal self image.

It’s the cool girls again 🤣🤣

This sounds like a conflation and correlation problem. Yes theres been publicity from high profile GC individuals but the problem is that trans people started using facilities unlawfully. And instead of campaigning for open legal change opted for “no debate”. That strategy only works short term and always results in push back. The bigger issue is the change in numbers of trans people. From 1 in 13,000 estimated in 2004 to the 1in 70 for the under 25 age group in the Scottish census figures. At these very high rates it’s not sustainable to expect women to entirely give up the single sex spaces that took 150 years or so of campaigning to get! Prior to singles sex loos women were excluded from the workplace and it was given as a reason for not employing women as recently as the 1980s. A the current rates we need proper third spaces as an extra option. It should go in the Building Rega and just get organised as it has been for additional disability access and facilities. If you don’t understand the impact of limited access to toilets on people have a look at the Changing Places Toilets campaign and grants which are life changing for those who need them. Suitable toilets arent a luxury service

Yes! Yes we have! But for the eleventy billonth time, it's not because they're trans it's because they're men and so like all men they don't belong in

women's toilets
in women's prisons
in groups for female rape survivors
in women's refuges
women's sports
on programmes to improve women's representation in STEM or politics

these things are for women not for men & we want our stuff back from men who have stomped all over women's spaces without bloody asking

My position is as follows:

• being trans is a real, natural and legitimate axis of human diversity;

• trans people must be included and accommodated in society in a manner that is compatible with their basic human rights to dignity, privacy, healthcare, etc.

This is nothing to do with “cult mind” or “zealotry” but rather position I have come to through years of scientific study , research and rigorous critical thought about sex, gender and being trans as well as justice and human rights .

i participate on a lot of threads about trans people to combat the misinformation and prejudice about trans people that is so widespread on mumsnet and so harmful .

I participated in the SP tribunal threads. My contributions were not a “derail” but were engaged in the discussion at hand , only from the perspective of someone who supports DU and finds SP’s behaviour disgraceful.

@Tandora but women’s basic human rights to dignity, privacy, healthcare, etc. - is not compatible with letting men in women’s spaces. Why can’t you get that through your warped mind?

trans identification is a mental health issue. A response to trauma or some other event. It’s like anorexia and requires proper hollistic mental health support. Not affirmation or compliance. The vast majority of the world thinks this. Vast.

Always a classic. I know some men who claim to be women & they’re really nice - I’ve no doubt your male friends are really nice.

So all you mean, nasty uncool women should be happy with any man who wants to come into your single sex space, cause that includes my nice friends.

But I’m going to use the word transwoman, not man, because that’s part of the magic cloak under which some men hope to be whisked into women’s spaces.

Quite @NeverOneBiscuit

Great thread OP.

No women anywhere in the world campaigned to have men in our sports, showers, changing rooms etc or to have children persuaded that their bodies are flawed but could be fixed with a sex change.

This has been a male dominated campaign that's led to the police and judiciary calling a perverted man like this a woman and giving him a get out of jail free card to allow him to offend again:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5388361-what-the-fuck?page=1

Time for women to take our rights back and for those desperate to enable men like this, to look at what they've done to society and children and start putting it right.

That’s their choice. If they take these steps, egged on by each other and social media - they can use the space for their biological sex or nothing. That’s literally the law. It will be enforced.

Women’s basic human rights to privacy , dignity , healthcare is absolutely 100% compatible with a society that also includes and accommodates trans people.

The belief that the two arent compatible is the warped thinking.

trans identification is a mental health issue. A response to trauma or some other event. It’s like anorexia and requires proper hollistic mental health support.

No. This is an incorrect, harmful and prejudiced misunderstanding of being trans.

No it’s not.

women forced to shares space with trans identified males lose dignity and privacy. That’s a fundamental
fact and you KNOW it.

There will be places where men in women’s toilets can be removed by security, for eg pubs and nightclubs. I’ve seen plenty of men being removed for being too drunk, violent, abusive to women. Men invading women’s toilets is harassment and the club is within their rights to eject them.

Great retort. I look forward to you getting a record. Hope you’re arrested day one.

OP’s question is interesting because apparently the foundation of English common law is that unless something is specifically prohibited then it is permitted.

Which is partly why males in female SSS is difficult to enforce - single sex spaces arent well enough defined? How/where would the law do that?

No being trans is not a choice.

also btw you misunderstand the law. It was simply about how service providers should interpret their obligations r.e. Equalities law and discrimination

You look forward to “getting me a record” and you hope “I’m arrested”?
For what? Disagreeing with you on a mumsnet thread?

Definitely makes you sounds balanced and reasonable on this subject and not the least bit unhinged. 😂

At present gender dysphoria is supposed to be the differentiator for being trans. That’s a psychiatric condition listed in the DSM5. The NHS is only obliged to provide hormones and surgery because it’s a mental illness. By all means campaign for that to change if you like but please don’t be disingenuous in the meantime

As there are no biological nor neurological markers that are common between all people with transgender identities, what is left is that this is a group of people who have a philosophical belief about themselves. And one that doesn’t reflect material reality.

What other group’s philosophical belief, one that doesn’t reflect material reality, gets prioritised above sex when sex matters? Why does this group get this special treatment?