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To think that, under the threat of "Let the war begin", there should be specific laws against male's entering female private spaces (and vice versa)

1000 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 08/08/2025 14:46

After being told they will not be allowed to enter female toilets, changing rooms, clubs and other private sexed spaces, men have vowed to "fight" or be arrested “multiple times

https://archive.ph/tdkd0

"Let the war begin. Fingers crossed. You need to fight for all of us globally. It’s a war."

I think it is reasonable to have a specific crime for this sort of violation of rights and privacy, rather than Outraging public decency, Voyeurism, Exposure/ indecent exposure.

It seems clear that without firm dealing with, men are going to violate these spaces again and again.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:14

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 12:09

Just saying the same thing twice, is not a good argument back to me. However to expand what I was saying earlier

If transgenderism is real, the same reasoning can support transracialism and trans-age

Core principle: identity over birth assignment

  • Transgenderism says your inner gender identity can outweigh your birth-assigned sex, and society should recognise it.
  • Transracial and trans-age claims follow the same structure: a persistent self-identity taking precedence over the category assigned at birth.
  • If subjective identity and lived experience are decisive, the logic applies equally unless a principled difference is shown.

Shared socio–biological mix

  • Sex = biology + social gender roles.
  • Race = ancestry + social constructs.
  • Age = chronology + cultural categories.
  • If the social element allows reclassification for gender, the same reasoning can apply to race and age.

On “being ridiculous” and ‘not a condition’

  • Today, there are thousands of papers on transgenderism, NHS services, and legal protections — but that’s because decades of activism and research transformed something once dismissed as fringe into a recognised category.
  • Thirty years ago, gender dysphoria was under-researched, ignored, and widely called “not real.” Lack of evidence then didn’t prove it was fake; it proved society hadn’t looked seriously yet.
  • Saying “there’s no condition called transracial or trans-age” only shows these identities are under-investigated, under-reported, and stigmatised, exactly the position transgender identities were in before recognition.
  • The absence of NHS clinics or legal protection isn’t proof of non-existence; it’s proof of current social and institutional priorities.

Transracialism could be a condition

  • A persistent identification with another race could have psychological or neurological roots, just as some people believe gender dysphoria does.
  • Its rarity or stigma may explain the lack of data, people are less likely to speak out if it brings ridicule or social penalty. Just like being trans used to be.

Consistency of lived experience

  • “Only I know my true identity” is accepted for gender; a transracial or trans-age claimant can say the same about race or age.
  • If lived experience is decisive in one case, rejecting it in others requires clear evidence, not just current social norms.

Avoiding arbitrary boundaries

  • If we accept gender identity because it is socially constructed, deeply felt, and misalignment causes harm, race and age meet the same criteria.
  • To reject them, we need a principled, non-arbitrary distinction, not an appeal to popularity, law, or present-day science.

To sum all of this up -
Current recognition of transgenderism is the result of decades of change, not proof it was always accepted as real. If the standard is that self-identity can override birth assignment when deeply felt and lived, then, absent a clear difference, the same reasoning can extend to race and age.

Edited

It "could" be a condition sure - I'm not omnipotent / god. Maybe in the future we will discover all kinds of evidence of this and I will revise my position.

But right now this is a totally meaningless conversation./ distraction. There is no evidence whatsoever that being transracial is a condition, and no strong theory or science that would support the idea that it might be a condition or why that would be.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 12:17

Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:14

It "could" be a condition sure - I'm not omnipotent / god. Maybe in the future we will discover all kinds of evidence of this and I will revise my position.

But right now this is a totally meaningless conversation./ distraction. There is no evidence whatsoever that being transracial is a condition, and no strong theory or science that would support the idea that it might be a condition or why that would be.

Again @Tandora , you have not addressed my points, not even attempted to.

There is plenty of evidence, I named people, there is plenty of comparisons with transgenderism 30 years ago, I pointed them out. Your job, I imagine, is to tell us WHY transgenderism should not be held in the same regard as transracialism and WHY it is different, not just say "it is different so there"

OP posts:
BundleBoogie · 11/08/2025 12:17

Tandora · 11/08/2025 10:55

Again I have no interest in discussing a random video you found on YouTube .

Im here to discuss the science of sex, gender and transness and appropriate arrangement of policy based on those scientific realities.

See here’s the thing Tandora.

Rules need to be consistent. They can have exceptions but they need to be applied consistently across all cases.

There are many members and allies of the trans community that accept him for what he claims to be. “Acceptance without exception” was the mantra I believe.

By your own shifting array of definitions (and those of the ‘community’ and its representatives, he fits the bill. The laws and policies dictated by trans activists have been designed to apply to him.

Your apparent refusal to accept Stefohknee as a 6 yr old girl breaks the rules but you won’t address the question or explain this lack of consistency or consensus throughout the community.

Contrast that with our nice simple position. Every person who knows that sex is binary and cannot be changed would consistently and 100% accurately identify him as a middle aged man. No linguistic gymnastics, no increasingly inventive and impenetrable prevarication. Just a clear fact. He is a man. It really is that simple.

Do you ever think that you’ve argued yourself into a corner and that maybe we’ve got a point?

Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:22

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 12:17

Again @Tandora , you have not addressed my points, not even attempted to.

There is plenty of evidence, I named people, there is plenty of comparisons with transgenderism 30 years ago, I pointed them out. Your job, I imagine, is to tell us WHY transgenderism should not be held in the same regard as transracialism and WHY it is different, not just say "it is different so there"

I can't keep saying the same thing over and over again .

There is a mountain of scientific evidence of the existence of trans people. In Europe/ America the science on this is only about 100 years old, but in other cultures this is not so, and also if we look historically we see evidence in Europe that is older.

There is an entire section of our health service dedicated to 'treating' this condition.

We have laws that recognise this condition.

Meanwhile there is no evidence whatsoever, anywhere in the world of being transracial or transage, and no good science/ theory science to think there will be such a thing in the future. However, I do not hand a crystal ball - if this evidence starts to appear I shall be willing to discuss and think about it. Until then it's a ridiculous line of discussion.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 12:25

Tandora · 11/08/2025 11:56

1) “They’re not making any claims about your experience/body; they’re telling you something about themselves.”*

That concedes my core point. If the claim is only about a private inner state, then it isn’t knowledge of female experience. It’s a self-description. Calling that state “female” still borrows a public category (the sex class female) without access to its embodied reference point.*

Correct, being trans has nothing to do with any claim to knowledge about a universal or singular "female experience"

However, being a trans woman is to have an awareness/ experience of self as being female (despite male registration at birth). This is a bio-psychological cognition analogous to hunger or sexual desire.

2) “To be a trans woman is to be registered male at birth but to understand/recognise/know oneself to be female.”*
Two options, neither supports the idea that a male knows “what being female feels like”:

  • If “female” means the biological sex class, inner feeling cannot make that true.
  • If “female” is redefined to mean “my gender identity,” then the claim is circular: “I know I’m female because I feel female,” which tells us nothing about women’s embodied experience.*

The problem is that 'being female' is not just one thing. Sex is not just one thing. Sex is a complex developmental process, with a number of components. Sex development starts with chromosomes, which drive the process of the development of internal gonads, these gonads then produce hormones, which operate systematically across the body/ brain to produce variable degrees of masculinisation and feminisation. Hormones also influences cognitive processes, including the development of cognitions in relation to sex.

We can use the word 'female' to refer to different things - but however we define it we run into complexities. We can define 'female' as registration at birth, but then you get individuals like Imane Khelif who gender critical feminists want to insist was "wrongly" registered at birth.

You can define "female" through chromosomes, but then you get into the problem that there are people, like women with CAIS, who are female in all ways that are meaningful, in society, law, medicine, but nonetheless have XY chromosomes. If you define these people as male you contradict the gender critical position that 'female' is a meaningful category in law and society. One of the things gender criticals love to claim is that 'sex' is immediately visible and obvious, I have known women with CAIS who've been in intimate relationships with men for years who have no idea that the have XY chromosomes. Some women with CAIS don't even know themselves that they have it.

So how do we define female? And how do we define it in a way that makes sense scientifically, medically and from the perspective of justice? These questions are not as obvious as the gender critical position would like to pretend they are.

3) “It may seem impossible to you… but it’s a real feature of human diversity.”*
Diversity of inner life is real. It still doesn’t answer the epistemic question: how could a male know a state equals “being female” without ever being female? Diversity doesn’t grant comparison data. How?*

As I've stated repeatedly, the psychological state of being aware/ experiencing one's own sex, has nothing to do with a broader claim about how other people experience that state. If I say I'm hungry, I make no claims to how you experience hunger, I just know that I am hungry.

4) “It’s a direct experience, not a reasoned stereotype.”*
Directness doesn’t settle correctness. Many inner states are vivid yet mislabelled (anxiety as excitement, phantom limb pain as limb). The labelling of a raw feeling as “female” depends on social learning and imagination. Without access to female embodiment, the label remains an interpretation, not confirmed knowledge. It's not direct, as they are not female, it can't be.

5) “It’s not about stereotypes, essence, or a claim to anything in common with you.”
If there’s no claim to commonality with females, that again concedes the point: the person isn’t claiming to know female experience, only their own private sensation. That supports my view: a male can think he feels like a woman; he cannot know what being female feels like. There is no way for them to know that private sensation is anything like the feeling of being female. They cannot know.*

I will answer these points together. As above, when a trans woman says they are female, they cannot possibly know what your experience of female feels like, they only know what their experience of female is.

For an analogy. this time take sexual desire, if I experience sexual attraction, I have no way of knowing whether what I feel is the same as what you feel when you experience sexual attraction, I just know what I feel.

There is no interpretation of other people's experience involved, it is a direct experience of self . The experience is a profound understanding/ awareness/ perception/ experience of self as being female, and yes this experience absolutely is embodied - a 7 year old once described it this 'I feel it in my body, my bones, and in my heart'.

You claim that there is no external reference for this, but of course there is! Take the analogy of colours. At a very early age children learn to label colours. When I see a blue object, I learn that the word for that is blue. I have no way of knowing what you see when you see the colour blue - does blue look the same to me as it does to you? Who knows? But I know there are things that look blue and the label for them is blue.

Now imagine their are green people and blue people in the world. A trans person is observed green at birth, but as they grow and learn about colours they perceive themselves to be blue. They know what blue is because they have learned the word and understand how to apply it to label all those around them. However, when they look at themselves, they don't see green, they see blue. They are not 'faking' , they are not 'lying' this is literally their direct perception of self when they look at their skin. They see blue. Not an idea of blue or a philosophical belief about what blue looks like, or a projection of what other people experience as blue. They just simply see blue. They can't help it, they can't change it, this is their direct perception/ experience.

You might say - well they aren't really seeing blue, they are colour blind/ deluded/ and have simply developed a set of false ideas/stereotypes/ projections about what blue looks like, and so they think they are seeing blue.

But this doesn't make sense, if this were true then trans people would miscolour all sorts of other people - they wouldn't really be able to identify who was blue and who wasn't - they'd always be relying on these same false stereotypes. But trans people have exactly the same ability as any other person to identify green and blue when they observe it on other people's skin. They are not colour blind, only when they look at their own skin they see blue.

Thank you @Tandora for all of your points. As promised I am taking them on board and responding to them one by one:

“Being trans has nothing to do with any claim to knowledge about a universal or singular ‘female experience’… being a trans woman is an awareness/experience of self as female, analogous to hunger or sexual desire.”

Thank you, this concedes the key point: the claim is about a private state, not about women’s embodied experience. The analogy fails where it matters. Hunger and sexual desire are interoceptive states with known physiological signatures, triggers, and functions. “Female” is not a feeling; it is a public category defined by reproductive organisation. A male body cannot directly perceive “being female” the way it perceives low blood glucose or genital arousal. So the inner state can be real, but the label “female” remains an interpretation rather than knowledge of membership in the female sex class.

A Stoic framing helps: impressions happen in the body; assent to a proposition is separate. The impression “I am female” may be compelling; the proposition “I am in the female sex class” does not follow.

“Sex is complex… chromosomes, gonads, hormones… CAIS shows people with XY can be ‘female’ in all meaningful ways… Imane Khelif shows birth registration can be wrong. So how do we define female?”

Sex development is complex, but the definition of sex is not: in biology, sexes are the two reproductive classes organised around large gametes (ova) or small gametes (sperm). Disorders or variations of sex development are real, but they are defined relative to that binary, not as a third category, and not as identity states. CAIS is a developmental condition in 46,XY people with testes and androgen insensitivity; social or legal treatment as “female” in some contexts is pragmatic, not probative of sex changing by self-knowledge. Birth registration errors occur, but rare misclassification does not erase what the classes are.

If we redefine “female” to include self-identity, we reintroduce the circularity you say you reject: “female means whoever identifies as female.”

“When I say I’m hungry I make no claim about how you feel hunger. Likewise a trans woman only knows her own experience of ‘being female’.”

Agreed, and that supports my point. You have authority over your first-person feeling, not over the third-person categoryit purports to name. “I feel X” is incorrigible about the feeling. “Therefore I am female” is a claim about belonging to a public class that is defined independently of anyone’s feelings.

“Sexual desire analogy: I cannot know your desire; I only know mine.”

Desire still has an external referent and measurable correlates; we can check behaviour and physiology. “Female” as a label does not pick out a private quale. It names a material class defined by reproductive organisation. One cannot discover membership of that class by introspection from inside a male body.

“It’s a direct, embodied experience. A child said: ‘I feel it in my body, my bones, and in my heart.’”

All cognition is embodied. Embodiment confirms the reality of the feeling, not the truth of the label. Phantom limb pain is fully embodied; it does not entail the limb exists. Likewise, “I feel female” can be sincere and embodied, yet wrongly named as knowledge of being female.

Colour analogy: ‘green people’ and ‘blue people’. Trans people see blue when they look at themselves, yet can correctly identify blue in others; therefore it is not stereotype or delusion.

The analogy smuggles in the very thing at issue: that “female” is a directly visible property like surface colour. It's not. Colour terms are learned by ostension to publicly observable properties and can be instrumentally verified (wavelengths). If someone “sees blue” on their own skin while spectroscopy and others agree it is green, that is a self-referential perceptual error, not a reason to redefine blue. In sex terms: you can reliably identify women in the world, but that says nothing about whether your self-perception maps to that class. The contested step is the mapping from inner state to public category, and the analogy does not justify that step.

“There is no interpretation of other people’s experience involved… it is a direct experience of self as being female.”

The phrase “as being female” imports the public category into a private state. That is the interpretive leap, it must be. You have direct access to “what I feel.” You do not have direct access to “what being female is” as lived by those in the female sex class, nor to membership in that class. Without that access, the label is a hypothesis, not confirmed knowledge.

Where the disagreement actually sits

  1. We agree the inner feeling is real and significant.
  2. We disagree that inner certainty can establish membership in a public, material class.
  3. Your own framing vacillates between “no claim about anyone else” and “a direct perception of being female.” The latter is exactly the epistemic claim you said you were not making.

A clear, non-arbitrary boundary

  • Private authority: incorrigible about how one feels.
  • Public categories: determined by properties independent of any one person’s feelings.
  • Sex, as a reproductive class, sits on the public side. Identity, however important, cannot move it.

Summing it all up a male can sincerely report a powerful, embodied inner state and call it “female.” That does not yield knowledge of women’s embodied experience, nor does it alter the criteria of the sex class female. Private sensations do not redefine public categories where sex, not identity, is what matters.

OP posts:
SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 12:27

Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:22

I can't keep saying the same thing over and over again .

There is a mountain of scientific evidence of the existence of trans people. In Europe/ America the science on this is only about 100 years old, but in other cultures this is not so, and also if we look historically we see evidence in Europe that is older.

There is an entire section of our health service dedicated to 'treating' this condition.

We have laws that recognise this condition.

Meanwhile there is no evidence whatsoever, anywhere in the world of being transracial or transage, and no good science/ theory science to think there will be such a thing in the future. However, I do not hand a crystal ball - if this evidence starts to appear I shall be willing to discuss and think about it. Until then it's a ridiculous line of discussion.

All you have done is say it's ridiculous. I have clearly and patiently pointed out about six ways it's just the same as transgenderism and that if you accept one you MUST by reasoning and logic, accept the other. You have done nothing to support your view that transgenderism is special and real and transracialism is not. Why would you support one and not the other given the self identity argument?

OP posts:
Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:32

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 12:27

All you have done is say it's ridiculous. I have clearly and patiently pointed out about six ways it's just the same as transgenderism and that if you accept one you MUST by reasoning and logic, accept the other. You have done nothing to support your view that transgenderism is special and real and transracialism is not. Why would you support one and not the other given the self identity argument?

I’ve explained why it’s ridiculous- it’s ridiculous because there’s no evidence whatsoever that it exists.

you think you’ve developed some theory about why it’s the same so I have to respond to your logic, even though there’s no actual evidence that the thing even exists.

I could develop a theory- list of bullet points- about how unicorns are basically the same as horses , doesn’t mean unicorns exist 🤯 and other people need to waste their time proving otherwise.

Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:34

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 12:25

Thank you @Tandora for all of your points. As promised I am taking them on board and responding to them one by one:

“Being trans has nothing to do with any claim to knowledge about a universal or singular ‘female experience’… being a trans woman is an awareness/experience of self as female, analogous to hunger or sexual desire.”

Thank you, this concedes the key point: the claim is about a private state, not about women’s embodied experience. The analogy fails where it matters. Hunger and sexual desire are interoceptive states with known physiological signatures, triggers, and functions. “Female” is not a feeling; it is a public category defined by reproductive organisation. A male body cannot directly perceive “being female” the way it perceives low blood glucose or genital arousal. So the inner state can be real, but the label “female” remains an interpretation rather than knowledge of membership in the female sex class.

A Stoic framing helps: impressions happen in the body; assent to a proposition is separate. The impression “I am female” may be compelling; the proposition “I am in the female sex class” does not follow.

“Sex is complex… chromosomes, gonads, hormones… CAIS shows people with XY can be ‘female’ in all meaningful ways… Imane Khelif shows birth registration can be wrong. So how do we define female?”

Sex development is complex, but the definition of sex is not: in biology, sexes are the two reproductive classes organised around large gametes (ova) or small gametes (sperm). Disorders or variations of sex development are real, but they are defined relative to that binary, not as a third category, and not as identity states. CAIS is a developmental condition in 46,XY people with testes and androgen insensitivity; social or legal treatment as “female” in some contexts is pragmatic, not probative of sex changing by self-knowledge. Birth registration errors occur, but rare misclassification does not erase what the classes are.

If we redefine “female” to include self-identity, we reintroduce the circularity you say you reject: “female means whoever identifies as female.”

“When I say I’m hungry I make no claim about how you feel hunger. Likewise a trans woman only knows her own experience of ‘being female’.”

Agreed, and that supports my point. You have authority over your first-person feeling, not over the third-person categoryit purports to name. “I feel X” is incorrigible about the feeling. “Therefore I am female” is a claim about belonging to a public class that is defined independently of anyone’s feelings.

“Sexual desire analogy: I cannot know your desire; I only know mine.”

Desire still has an external referent and measurable correlates; we can check behaviour and physiology. “Female” as a label does not pick out a private quale. It names a material class defined by reproductive organisation. One cannot discover membership of that class by introspection from inside a male body.

“It’s a direct, embodied experience. A child said: ‘I feel it in my body, my bones, and in my heart.’”

All cognition is embodied. Embodiment confirms the reality of the feeling, not the truth of the label. Phantom limb pain is fully embodied; it does not entail the limb exists. Likewise, “I feel female” can be sincere and embodied, yet wrongly named as knowledge of being female.

Colour analogy: ‘green people’ and ‘blue people’. Trans people see blue when they look at themselves, yet can correctly identify blue in others; therefore it is not stereotype or delusion.

The analogy smuggles in the very thing at issue: that “female” is a directly visible property like surface colour. It's not. Colour terms are learned by ostension to publicly observable properties and can be instrumentally verified (wavelengths). If someone “sees blue” on their own skin while spectroscopy and others agree it is green, that is a self-referential perceptual error, not a reason to redefine blue. In sex terms: you can reliably identify women in the world, but that says nothing about whether your self-perception maps to that class. The contested step is the mapping from inner state to public category, and the analogy does not justify that step.

“There is no interpretation of other people’s experience involved… it is a direct experience of self as being female.”

The phrase “as being female” imports the public category into a private state. That is the interpretive leap, it must be. You have direct access to “what I feel.” You do not have direct access to “what being female is” as lived by those in the female sex class, nor to membership in that class. Without that access, the label is a hypothesis, not confirmed knowledge.

Where the disagreement actually sits

  1. We agree the inner feeling is real and significant.
  2. We disagree that inner certainty can establish membership in a public, material class.
  3. Your own framing vacillates between “no claim about anyone else” and “a direct perception of being female.” The latter is exactly the epistemic claim you said you were not making.

A clear, non-arbitrary boundary

  • Private authority: incorrigible about how one feels.
  • Public categories: determined by properties independent of any one person’s feelings.
  • Sex, as a reproductive class, sits on the public side. Identity, however important, cannot move it.

Summing it all up a male can sincerely report a powerful, embodied inner state and call it “female.” That does not yield knowledge of women’s embodied experience, nor does it alter the criteria of the sex class female. Private sensations do not redefine public categories where sex, not identity, is what matters.

Edited

That does not yield knowledge of women’s embodied experience

CORRECT!

it does not nor does it claim to.

There’s no such singular and objective thing as “women’s embodied experience”.

As for your claim that being female is not observable. Baffling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2025 12:38

CohensDiamondTeeth · 11/08/2025 09:03

It's funny because it's a pseudo intellectual word salad that you used to try and bamboozle people into thinking you are much better educated than they are, and that you know more than they do about this subject.

Biological sex is simple, it is binary. People are either of the female, or male sex. There is no third sex.

You had two threads set up just for you to talk to us about how biological sex is oh so very complicated, and to show us any evidence that would back you up, but you refused to give links to anything specific and kept telling people your evidence was out there if they cared to look for it themselves, but again refused to provide much direction other than one website link IIRC.

As per usual people were supposed to just take your word for it, and as per usual no one was having it.

👏

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 11/08/2025 12:42

Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:34

That does not yield knowledge of women’s embodied experience

CORRECT!

it does not nor does it claim to.

There’s no such singular and objective thing as “women’s embodied experience”.

As for your claim that being female is not observable. Baffling.

Edited

Please don't just respond to one tiny thing. Quote me, go line by line through each point. I separated them for you for a reason.

OP posts:
BundleBoogie · 11/08/2025 12:45

Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:00

You are being perfectly ridiculous.

Being transgender is a condition.
If you type the word "transgender" into Cambridge online libraries database you get 89,801 relevant articles, scientific papers, books, research studies.

There's an entire section of the health service that provides services to transgender people. There are laws that recognise the existence of trans people.

There is no evidence of any type of condition called "transracial" or "transage". A few people allegedly claiming something on youtube does not constitute reliable evidence of anything.

Edited

Being transgender is a condition.
If you type the word "transgender" into Cambridge online libraries database you get 89,801 relevant articles, scientific papers, books, research studies.

There's an entire section of the health service that provides services to transgender people. There are laws that recognise the existence of trans people.

I think when you make points like this it’s what makes people question your level of education or at least reasoning ability. Is that really your best reasoning as to why ‘transgender’ is a condition and transage or transracial isn’t?

There was an entire section of the health service that was dedicated to lobotomising people - that doesn’t make it right.

There is no evidence of any type of condition called "transracial" or "transage". A few people allegedly claiming something on youtube does not constitute reliable evidence of anything.

Can you explain how Jan Morris’s claim to be a woman is more valid than transracial/age claims?

It would help if you could explain the thought process you would go through to verify or eliminate such claims.

How many white people reporting their ‘understanding of themselves as black’ would it take for you to accept that it’s a condition?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2025 12:47

Tandora · 11/08/2025 10:55

Again I have no interest in discussing a random video you found on YouTube .

Im here to discuss the science of sex, gender and transness and appropriate arrangement of policy based on those scientific realities.

“Stefonknee” was at one point an advisor to the Canadian government, he’s not just some random YouTuber. And of course you don’t wish to discuss it as many trans rights activists are very much like “Stefonknee”, and that doesn’t suit your spurious arguments.

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 12:54

Thanks for responding with a full answer, Tandora. It is actually really useful to see the arguments that you've hinted at for a very long time but never actually expounded until now.

And thanks too to OP for a very clear response.

I think the final analogy you use, of colour, is very interesting. If, instead of 'blue' and 'green', we substitute, say, 'black' and 'white', where does that leave us with regard to transracialism?

Tandora · 11/08/2025 12:58

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 12:54

Thanks for responding with a full answer, Tandora. It is actually really useful to see the arguments that you've hinted at for a very long time but never actually expounded until now.

And thanks too to OP for a very clear response.

I think the final analogy you use, of colour, is very interesting. If, instead of 'blue' and 'green', we substitute, say, 'black' and 'white', where does that leave us with regard to transracialism?

It would except there is no evidence of any kind of minority psychological condition where people look at their skin and literally a different colour to that observed by others. it was just an analogy.

borntobequiet · 11/08/2025 12:59

It’s quite useful having the argument for transgenderism being articulated, in summary, as “it’s a feeling inside, a bio-psychological cognition (whatever that means)”.

Because that exposes it in all its inadequacy.

(N.B. I am not saying that transpeople do not exist, just that if they believe that they are really the opposite sex from their birth sex, they are mistaken).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2025 13:02

Yes, people who call themselves “trans” exist, I have no argument there. I have no wish to erase that existence, as women are frequently accused of doing. I just don’t believe they can be meaningfully categorised as the opposite sex in any sense.

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 13:08

a bio-psychological cognition

A thought or idea, I think this means.

Tandora · 11/08/2025 13:09

borntobequiet · 11/08/2025 12:59

It’s quite useful having the argument for transgenderism being articulated, in summary, as “it’s a feeling inside, a bio-psychological cognition (whatever that means)”.

Because that exposes it in all its inadequacy.

(N.B. I am not saying that transpeople do not exist, just that if they believe that they are really the opposite sex from their birth sex, they are mistaken).

even if they are “mistaken” - I totally disagree with the logic/ assumptions behind this judgement. But even if I didn’t - say I agree with you - they are mistaken. they are wrong. Very wrong , very bad. Wrong wrong wrong.

And what?

Now what?

What do we do? There are a significant minority of individuals who are like this.
We can’t cure it.
We can’t change it.
Denying and repressing it causes intense psychological distress. Meanwhile accepting it can result in a perfectly healthy full life for the individual affected.

So what do we do?

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 13:12

Why do we need to 'do' anything? Lots of people struggle with misunderstandings and misperceptions and discomfort about their lived reality, for all sorts of reasons.

There is the possibility of therapy and counselling to address the unease or discomfort or unhappiness.

We can certainly accept that people feel this way. That's all totally fine.

What we cannot and won't do is pretend that their delusions are true, and organise society around them, and especially not where this would mean that disadvantaged groups (women) are exposed to increased risk or detriment.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2025 13:12

What @ArabellaScott said.

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 13:12

I mean the other thing that feminists would suggest is that we continue to challege the strict gendered stereotypes that often contribute to people's discomfort.

Tandora · 11/08/2025 13:15

ArabellaScott · 11/08/2025 13:12

Why do we need to 'do' anything? Lots of people struggle with misunderstandings and misperceptions and discomfort about their lived reality, for all sorts of reasons.

There is the possibility of therapy and counselling to address the unease or discomfort or unhappiness.

We can certainly accept that people feel this way. That's all totally fine.

What we cannot and won't do is pretend that their delusions are true, and organise society around them, and especially not where this would mean that disadvantaged groups (women) are exposed to increased risk or detriment.

But even if I accept it is a “delusion” (I don’t).

therapy to try to try to correct the “delusion” doesn’t help. It only intensifies distress.

The only thing that helps is accepting the reality of their experience and allowing them to live it- even if it’s not the same as our experience.

Im so shocked that people are so narrow minded that the availability (and humanity) of this option is so incomprehensible to them.

TheKeatingFive · 11/08/2025 13:17

VioletandDill · 08/08/2025 16:05

It would be a completely unenforcable law, that is without invasive medical tests/intrusive ID checks, and the collateral damage of masculine looking women being fired/harassed/hurt. (Yes, that last part is already happening) I would suggest to any trans women or masculine natal women reading this that you do not have to prove anything, and nobody can prove your biology without the aforementioned invasive/intrusive tests. If challenged you simply need to say 'I'm entitled to use this space' and use it. Easier said than done of course, and not to be done if it would put you in danger.

None of my trans friends are going to forced out of spaces that they've been using forever, while I'm around. I'll speak up for them and I'll go with them. Whether that's accompanying them to the women's, or if push really does come to shove, coming with them in to the men's. After all I'm one of those masculine looking women (bald, tall, muscular, wears 'men's' clothes) that have been bullied out of changing rooms and given dirty looks.

You can't force me to exclude my friends. I will not be knowingly using any spaces that do.

So you don't care about women's rights and boundaries and you're going to actively work against the law that's there to protect them.

Wonderful. The male rights activists walk among us. 🙄

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2025 13:18

They can’t “live” being women if they are men.

TheKeatingFive · 11/08/2025 13:18

Tandora · 11/08/2025 13:15

But even if I accept it is a “delusion” (I don’t).

therapy to try to try to correct the “delusion” doesn’t help. It only intensifies distress.

The only thing that helps is accepting the reality of their experience and allowing them to live it- even if it’s not the same as our experience.

Im so shocked that people are so narrow minded that the availability (and humanity) of this option is so incomprehensible to them.

Edited

None of us are under any compulsion to affirm people's false beliefs about themselves.

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