AIBU to think that 'patriarchy chicken' isn't the whole story?

[AliceMaforethought]

Hear me out, as I reckon that this will be an unpopular opinion, but I am keen to know if my experience is just me or if others experience the same.

I hear a lot on this site about 'patriarchy chicken': simply put, the admirable notion that women deserve to take up space and not have to stand aside for men. Last week, I was in London, (I'm from a smaller UK city) I was STAGGERED by the utter lack of spatial awareness of women. I am a woman, for context: youngish (I'm 42 but look a lot younger) I found women knocked into me constantly and let their kids blunder into me and other people. I didn't have a problem with men at all. The other thing that I did notice was that all these women were white, and were all ages from young to late middle age (old women weren't an issue at all) I am mixed race. Before anyone thinks that I was the problem and was just out of my depth in London, that isn't the case. I am a trained dancer, I have a lot of spatial awareness, and I am used to London even though I haven't lived there for a while. I am starting to wonder if I need to play 'white supremacy chicken'!

Yawn.

OP1: I hate fucking experiencing mansplaining every fucking day
MN: preach
Poster 1: oh so all men do this? Why are you making this about sex when they might just be a jerk regardless of their sex.
MN: OH GREAT ANOTHER "NOT MY NIGEL COOL WIFE"

OP2: I'm sick of man spreading. Here's how I combat it and make men feel awkward and get approving looks from knowing women on the tube.
MN: YES!!!!!!!!!! Finally people are waking up to this disgusting practice by men.
Poster: it's not something I've noticed. Seems kind of misandrist.
MN: ODFOD with your NAMALT shit misandry doesn't exist

OP3: here's something I've noticed as a POC and when it happens it's by and large white women doing it.
MN: oh so all white women do this every second of the day do they? Even the ones you've never met. Why even bring race in to it? You're the real racist.

OP, what many posters are missing is that it doesn't matter if they've never experienced this, you did. And even allowing for all the things like maybe people were busy talking or on their phones etc, you still had a disproportionate number of white women who did this .

Even if it's all a warped perception from some past experience, you still have had that past that led to this. (I'm not saying it was a warped perception, trying to show to others where their thinking could be developed).

So, whatever excuses they're coming up with, your experience is still true.

FWIW this sounds like a physical example of what 2nd wave feminism was accused of, being focused on mc White women and ignoring women of colour. Your physical attributes of being youngish, mixed race and smaller turn you into a literal blind spot that people blunder into. Of course it happens.

And yes, I sit with these concerns and if I walk into a shop I check behind me to make sure I'm not about to let the door close on someone like you that I didn't notice to try and overcome my own blind spots. It's basic manners.

THANK YOU!! You get it.

Thank you so much. I am so done with these posters, honestly. Thanks again.

I played patriarchal chicken in the car yesterday when I refused to be barged out of the way by a man. The look on his face was priceless as he was forced to give way to me.

I find middle class, middle aged people in M&S take up a lot of space and don't yield to anyone. They strut around like they own it and there's me squeezing and shuffling trying to get some shopping.

I think humans have a pecking order and we're all expected to know our place.

Huh?

I don't live in London, but am there multiple times a year. I can honestly say I've never experienced what you've described.

I'd also never heard of "patriarchy chicken", but would think of myself as pretty internet-savvy, and down with whatever the latest topic is.

It sounds like you've just encountered a load of knobs. London is absolutely packed to the rafters this time of year, and over-crowded. People are going to get a bit jostled sometimes, especially if (and it sounds like you are) you're in the busiest tourist areas.

A fair percentage actually. Try being a wheelchair user. And I'm white.

A couple of posters are claiming that they have no knowledge of this 'pavement chicken' phenomenon, that it never happens to them, that it is nothing to do with sexism, ageism, racism, class, or anything else, that if people bump into each other it is just random people being rude or too busy or on their phones.

Are you denying that humans are primates? or that primates are intensely hierarchical? or that humans are not hierarchical? or that this status-obsession is not demonstrated on pavements? or that it is not mostly operating on a sub-conscious level in the high status and low status people? or that sub-conscious actions exist?

Or perhaps you are never bumped into because you are so low-status you automatically get out of the way for everyone else, without even realising it?
(humorous - no insult intended).

Interesting that men will generally defer to women with young children, whereas other women won't.
I wonder if this is a hierarchy thing, with fertile women having a status above men, or whether it is just that these men have been trained to have 'manners'.

Well no country has anything to be proud about it then do they.

Interesting- this isn't something I've ever noticed in white women in particular but I have noticed total lack of spacial awareness of others in London. I have always just put it down to there being so many people around that it is impossible to avoid everyone. Purposely banging into someone because of a race difference is a pretty arseholey thing to do - even if it is an unconscious bias!

I'll look out for it next time. I can accept that being white means that I won't experience it in the same way though.

Wtf.

I’m glad I live where I do. Some people must live in absolute shitholes if everyone’s barging into each other like bonobos asserting their place in the hierarchy.

Just did a bit of internet research and apparently Denmark was the first country to abolish the transatlantic slave trade, so not Britain.
The first country recorded as banning slavery was France in 1315 although it was later used in French colonies.
Apparently slavery was never legal in Australia, so well done Australia.

Never heard of all this chicken nonsense but I’ve heard of main character syndrome. I reckon that’s what OP has.

I'm not sure if it a general thing but in recent years, since I hit 70, I've noticed young men are very polite and helpful and young women are the opposite. Older people seem about equal. I'm not saying every young man is helpful and every young woman isn't but it happens often enough that it is a clear pattern.

When I see posts on MN being very negative about being nice I wonder if that is a new attitude i.e. that woman shouldn't be nice, I'd much prefer that being nice was encouraged for everyone.

Inclined to agree.
One of those who thinks everyone else is thinking about her as much as she is.
My recommendation to her would be less time on the internet, and more time touching grass.

Why don't you touch grass yourself? Seriously, other people have contributed very interestingly and insightfully, and you just come out with this defensive nonsense. Risible.

And there we have it. 😂

No comment to make on my first post, but as soon as people start to be like, "hmm... overthinking", the MCS kicks in within 2 minutes (constantly refreshing the page...? Go touch grass) and the insults start to fly.

Anyway, I'll leave you to your endless refreshing.

Yes I think someone who has turned their lives around to being genuinely good people have a right to be proud about that. I also think a country that was responsible for the abolition of one of the most awful practices on earth should be proud they managed to achieve that. Why not?

I think it would be interesting to try to measure this empirically. I am slightly suspicious that rude young women stand out more as women are meant to be nice. Or that your bar for what counts as very polite and helpful is lower for men than women. This certainly can be seen for other facets of male behaviour - the bar for "great dad" is well below the line for normal non-neglectful mum.

Well I'm thinking of me 71 year old woman with a GC in a buggy and bag of stuff for them. If I go down the train carriage ready to get off as we approach a station I will almost always be offered help by young men, I can't think of an occasion in the last six months when a young woman has offered help but I can recall eyerolling and tutting as I'm holding them up by seconds. Older men and women sometimes offer. So I'm not actually expecting anything from any of them although I am grateful if it is offered, I'm certainly not judging anything different for the different sexes or age groups. I don't think there is a numbers issue but I don't keep score so maybe it is more common to have young men getting off trains but I can't think of any other explanation.

The worst experience I've had was a woman who was probably in her 80s and very annoyed that a wheelchair was in the wheelchair space on a bus and I had buggy in the buggy space. She was so angry as there was no room for her shopping trolley and shouted at me and was rude about moving for wheelchairs. She was a delight and did out do any young woman I've come across for rudeness.

Do you not see the absolute audacity of accusing me of 'Main Character Syndrome' while in the same breath keeping a tally of what posts of yours I replied to?! I mean are you actually for real with that?

As a white middle aged woman myself,I honestly don't understand why anyone is questioning you on this. Surely we all understand that we all have different levels and types of privilege that can spill over into this sort of unconcious behaviour? most of the men who always expect ME to move when walking down a path are probablh perfectly nice men who truly believe they're supporting equality at home and in the workplace etc. That's what makes these sort of things so insidious - they're not obvious and often they're not aware of it in the first place.

I find myself consciously checking if I'm doing this. Sometimes I worry I go too far the other way with white women's guilt, but I figure that really, treating people politely and nicely isn't over compensating, it's normal life.

As a slight side note, I live opposite a very large high school, co ed and quite diverse. It is the white teenage girls who are the MOST annoying on shared paths and inconsiderate and entitled. It's weird.

Britain did not singlehandedly end slavery, as I pointed out Denmark outlawed it before Britain. Neither Britain nor Denmark had a right to crow about it as they had benefitted from it in the first place.

You are also ignoring the black people who fought against slavery but I suppose they don't count. Maybe read up about slave rebellions in Jamaica, Barbados and Haiti. The Haitian rebellions was very successful and resulted in it becoming a free black republic, not Britain but black slaves achieved that. The British response to the Jamaican rebellion is certainly nothing to be proud of.