AIBU to think that 'patriarchy chicken' isn't the whole story?

[AliceMaforethought]

Hear me out, as I reckon that this will be an unpopular opinion, but I am keen to know if my experience is just me or if others experience the same.

I hear a lot on this site about 'patriarchy chicken': simply put, the admirable notion that women deserve to take up space and not have to stand aside for men. Last week, I was in London, (I'm from a smaller UK city) I was STAGGERED by the utter lack of spatial awareness of women. I am a woman, for context: youngish (I'm 42 but look a lot younger) I found women knocked into me constantly and let their kids blunder into me and other people. I didn't have a problem with men at all. The other thing that I did notice was that all these women were white, and were all ages from young to late middle age (old women weren't an issue at all) I am mixed race. Before anyone thinks that I was the problem and was just out of my depth in London, that isn't the case. I am a trained dancer, I have a lot of spatial awareness, and I am used to London even though I haven't lived there for a while. I am starting to wonder if I need to play 'white supremacy chicken'!

Young people in general are more oblivious, nose in their phones most of the time. I find girls worse than boys, though, just because they tend to congregate in bigger groups.

OP would obviously prefer to ignore you.
Yes we should be proud, I agree.

Do people not know what skillsets dance uses? It has been actually very very useful in my general life, I can read body language incredibly well (I've been dancing since I was three)

Yep, I can generally tell who is likely to bump into me and tend to dodge it.

Young people in general are more oblivious,

yep

Still waiting to hear which bit of London OP is referring to.

And this is why some people shouldn't be allowed on the Internet.

I thought this more than once in various cities (Edinburgh and Aberdeen both spring to mind) when my dc were pram/pushchair sized. Men would get off the pavement, open doors and help navigate stairs etc. Women would walk into me or expect me to move off the pavement. Obviously it wasn't all women/men but enough that it stuck out as being "a thing".

Now I spend a lot of time getting annoyed at my children's inability to look where they are going given that they're both excellent at assault courses/demonstrating spatial awareness when it benefits them.

Literally in london yesterday an older white man shunted my DD (adult white and female) out of the way impressively missing my sons he literally stepped to my right side knocking me moved diagonally infront to knock the left side of DD before moving diagonally infront of her to run down some steps and the stupidest part? He was going the wrong way and had to come back up the steps we eye rolled and moved on he was the only person to do that in such a deliberate manner all day

So I dont know where OP is walking where "everyone" is hitting them

Could you elaborate? It's not even clear if you agree or disagree based on what you've posted.

Why do people keep count of these sort of things, is it just to feel aggrieved.l? People in general, don’t think of others when they’re out and about.

Just let it wash over you, it really doesn’t matter.

Obviously you’re asking @skippy67, not me, but your answer struck me as really ill-informed: Britain was built on slavery and the triangular trade (tools from us to W Africa, kidnapped/trafficked people from Africa to the Caribbean, sugar etc from there to Europe). I don’t massively subscribe the idea that white Brits should be stressing about becoming anti-racist and I don’t feel guilty about what my ancestors’ overlords did in the past, but the idea that we should be proud of abolition is such a narrow perspective, it’s risible.

I live in London. I'm a white woman. I just think people in London are always late and are hyper-focused on getting to where they are going to. Add to the mix the people using devices when they are out and about, plus the skaters, the scooter people, the people who ride bikes on the pavement, plus all the other things that indicate a general lack of spatial awareness or respect, and...you get the pedestrian viewpoint of London. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I really don't think patriarchy or any intersectionality comes into it. I think people of all backgrounds are stressed out about making their appointments and work shifts on time. That's it.

This observation is no different to older women saying they notice they are invisible, as in logically its entirely possible that people have an unconscious bias.

I do think men as a whole are less likely to bump into women. In terms of women bumping into women, were there just more white people ? As that could have skewed perception slightly.

Unconscious bias definitely exists though - I've been fat and slim and definitely get more attention if I'm slim.

It's interesting- I'll definitely be aware of whether I'm doing it.

The thing that necessitates patriarchy chicken is that men tend not to 'see' women - that is, they can see us, visually, but don't register our presence as embodied persons they might have to move over for. We don't matter enough to notice, basically (obligatory NAMALT for the sensitive male ego).

I can easily believe that a certain proportion of white people exhibit a similar blindness to brown people. What I don't believe is that all these rude white people were female.

Anyhow, there's no good reason why you, as a dark-skinned woman, shouldn't play patriarchy + racism chicken. Just don't knock any old, disabled, pregnant or juvenile pedestrians out of your way.

There are a couple of things going on here. There’s the sample size (very small) and confirmation bias (once you start noticing something, you notice more of it because you’re looking it for it).

I think it’s very probable that people’s expectations of who should get out of the way for who are based on internal prejudices. It’s also possible that some groups are more observant than others, which may in turn be related to mobile phone use.

I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t a racist element at play, but I’d also be very surprised if women were worse culprits than men. It doesn’t match my lifelong experience and it doesn’t fit with what I understand about people’s prejudices. I think you’d have to do some kind of study to work out who were the worst offenders and who were the biggest “victims”. I don’t think you’d get a lot of white women barging into black (or any colour) men. You’d also hope that whilst the elderly are a vulnerable group, people would move out the way for them more. It would be interesting to compare advantage/disadvantage chicken wise with advantage/disadvantage more generally.

PhD, anyone?

Garliclitre, bit of a cross post there.

I work in London so I am used to busy pavements and tourists but yesterday was dreadful. I was in both the City and Regent Street area and both were full of people completely unaware of those around them dawdling and meandering and walking into people. They were of all races and ages.

I had planned to have a browse in a few shops around Regent St but in the end I did the one thing I needed there and then headed straight out. I think you just hit unlucky timing, OP.

No but she said it was just white women...oh I get it because someone is white they can't experience racism. Wasn't that the argument Diane Abbott put forward.

Ok. Gypsies...our local FB groups have had some of the most awful hatred completely ignored by the usually all powerful mods
Jews.... unable to visit London at times irrespective of their views on Gaza
White Muslims... constantly considered to be suffering from a mh issue
Even the film bend it like Beckham (one of my favourites) has the word Gorja throughout, a prerogative term for white people

We’re all describing different experiences because we are all picturing different pavements and all have our own differences in how we are perceived.

My DH is awful- totally oblivious to pavements etiquette. He doesn’t signal his moves ahead of time so it must feel like patriarchy chicken walking towards him. I end up making massive adjustments to make up for him making none. He doesn’t adjust his path to the other people whether it’s two of us heading for one small gap or people coming towards us.
In his case, it’s ND, but still very wearing.

I stand still against oncoming hordes. Elbows in, firmly rooted. The sea tends to break around you, albeit slightly huffily.

I'm white, my husband isn't and I definitely notice the difference when I am alone or with him.

Do you think abusers should be proud that they've stopped abusing? A country that never engaged in slavery should be proud.

Yesterday some ridiculous person was talking about inverted racism as in racism against white people 😆🙄 I will say though, I don't think I've ever had anyone bang into me in my life (and I'm very small)

OP were you in a largely white area? Obviously if you were then it would be mainly white people in your way.

I’m white, middle aged, short and live in a largely non-white area of London. I feel invisible as people constantly make no adjustments for me being on the pavement. If I get in the road I get no thanks or even eye contact. The offenders on the whole are parents of any colour with pushchairs, or non-white people in general, I don’t find any differences between male and female. I have no idea if someone of a different colour / age / sex / height / demeanour would have the same experience as me.

Yep. All cultures, ethnicities and countries are quite capable of racism and yep of course white people can experience racism, and just like all other ethnicities and cultures, they do.

And yep, the British did an amazing job of leading the way to stop the slave trade, at great financial cost to the UK taxpayers. Proud indeed to have that as part of my heritage.

There is no country on earth that hasn't been involved in slavery.

You sound quite racist. If this post was the other way round, all hell would break loose.