thinking its mad, how everyone assumes your going to return to work, when your dcs start school?

[milkgoddessmakesthefinestmilk]

im not planning to, i want to be the one that takes dd to school picks her up from school is there if shes sick or on holiday.

don't school children have about 3 months of hols a year?

p.s. hashim

findthepoormansquattroriver, calling posie "thick" doesn't make you clever

I am planning to try and work from home if I can when DD starts school.

I don't see what other options I have TBH, if I manage to find a job which actually fits in with school hours then I still have the problem of the school holidays to deal with. A p/t job would be unlikely to cover holiday childcare for 3 children and I have no family close by who could look after them for me.

But I can't bear the thought of not contributing to the household financially in some way, growing children mean more costs etc, then there is the boredom factor - what would I do all day?

Its a toughie but YANBU.

ssd - she's done a pretty good job of describing herself though hasnt she? Anyone who just makes up ridiculous statements such as 'I know I'm a lot younger than you' really deserves to be told how stupid they are being. This is a topic that deserves intelligent debate, not stupidity.

The finer points will just get melted in the heat of the argument, however I will just point out to Niecie, who posted:

"4. Yes - but I am not sure that this thread is about atypical SAHM. Riven for example, is not just a SAHM but a carer with responsibilities over and above what most SAHM have.

1. No - Yes of course but is a glimmer of recognition enough? "

I typed atypical, it wasn't a typo for a typical - by doing this I intended to acknowledge the incredible energy, effort, dedication and imagination of those SAHMs like riven who do not just SAH.

glimmer of recognition was a joke.

Not much laughter going on here though...

becklespeckle - I work 2 6-hour days in an office and as much extra as I can do at home, usually trying to hit about 28 hours for the week. I spread it out over weekends and so on, but I am lucky in that what I do is well suited to this arrangement. It's not possible for everyone, but if you can swing it, it's a great mix. Good luck.

I would second what marmite says, becklespeckle. There are a surprising number of opportunities out there for term time/flexi working - I know people in a range of different jobs who have managed to negotiate such deals. Again, a lot will depend on how much the employer wants you. If you are good at your job, and they want to keep you, they can often be very flexible. Also, take your annual leave to coincide with some of the school hols, and you should find that even with childcare costs, you are making money overall. And you may be surprised by your earning power once you get back into the world of work. Not easy, but as you say, important to contribute and keep busy.
Good luck!

riven - that's fine. (Though again, I would add that not everyone is in your situation). And there are other ways of doing things: I had baby and toddler and worked, as do many other people. I think the issue of 'deserving' to sit on your arse and do feck all is a weird way to describe it. Why does 'deserve' come into it? I could also sit around and do fuck all (I do occasionally on a day off!) but would get bored doing it more than that, as would lots of other people.
I think it's limiting to try to state what we 'would' or 'wouldnt' be doing if circumstances were different.If I didnt have kids I might be traveling the world, I might be prime minister... or I might be in the career I'm in. Who knows? And who knows what I'll be doing in one year/5 years time? that's the beauty of life!

IliketoMarmite - I know exactly what you said about atypical and typical.

You said - "Isn't it the case that there are exceptional SAHMs who do a huge amount of atypical work?
Yes, no, maybe."

I said yes there are but this thread is about atypical SAHM. We are talking about your average SAHM who has children at school and choses not to work.

Similarly though you copied my response to question 5 you neglected to post my emoticons which show that I indeed recognise it as a 'joke' and expect my response to be taken in the same way.

Riven - if you want to sit on your arse all day and do nothing take no notice of Findtheriver - she knows nothing of your life and seems to have a bit of a cob on at the moment. I suspect she is jealous but we are never ever going to get her to admit it.

Findtheriver - "I also feel it's hugely important to have that choice, which is why I value education, training, and having an interesting career"

Why, if you think it is hugely important to have a choice do you insist on attacking those who have made a choice but have made a different choice to you?

You don't have to have a career for your entire life from leaving school to pension - if somebody told you they did then they are telling you big fibs. I would be very sad if I looked back at retirement age to see 40 years of the same old routine day in day out with chance to do anything different and be myself. I have worked, I will work again but in the meantime I have other more important things to do.

And leave off accusing Posie of being drunk - it doesn't do you any favours to be so nasty. She has already told you that she is pregnant so it leaves me wondering whoses senses are so dulled by the repetitive 9-5 tedium of work that she can't form a coherent argument.

There is a difference between people (usually women) who have the choice to work and women who don't. Women who have not developed marketable skills will generally not have any choices about whether or not to work. They'll just do minimum wage roles part-time when they have available (free) childcare. It's a response to economic realities. It seems to me that the OP is addressing this group of women.

The work that carers of disabled children is incredibly valuable and necessary and caring. It's wonderful and marvellous and should be applauded not derided. But essentially this is not the position of mainstream or typical sahps.

I'm more interested in the situation of women with real choices - born out of years of dedication to developing marketable skills. What happens to them should they stay at home?

Because what I have seen from my own circle of friends/wives of friends/former colleagues/wives of colleagues is not good. Either they get frustrated and quite bitter, or they just get a bit, well, mushy. Women with originally razor sharp minds too. Learning 15 languages doesn't seem to me to be a typical scenario.

It's been interesting to read what sahms to with the days while the children are at school, but tbh it hasn't involved the study of Anglo Saxon or any life of the mind. It's mainly revolved around chores - an endless round of school runs/pump/laundry/housework/answering someone else's post. And mucking out. All those tasks are necessary - I do them myself (apart from the mucking out, being horseless) - but in and around a working day.

It seems to me that if we content ourselves with opting out into a life based around routine chores, and settle for this, then this goes some way to explaining why women are paid so much less. We expect less and we settle for less.

Oh and just to justify our own positions, we start ridiculous threads suggesting that to work is somehow "mad".

I'm a mentor for women in my firm to help them develop into senior roles. Reading threads like this makes me want to chew the desk with frustration.

How do you define 'mushy'? What is that they can no longer do? What are they bitter about? Do you know or are you making assumptions on their behalf?

The other thing that has to be borne in mind is that the trend these days, is more towards people having more than one career in a life time - men and women. Jobs for life are a thing of the past.

Taking time out of the workplace to be at home allows people the time to think about what they want to do with the rest of their life and start retraining. That is certainly the case in my circle of friends and acquaintances anyway. I don't think a single one is bitter - they have made a positive decision to stay at home and they are glad of it.

Quattro - I found your last post very helpful. Thank you.

niecie, I take your point about no longer jobs for life. A lot of people will change employers and/or change career direction in their lifetime. By changing career direction, it could be mean doing a different role, but generally leveraging off the skill sets one acquired previously.

But retraining and starting from scratch is not a viable thing to do when you have a family to feed. It usually means the person was completely unhappy in their previous job (eg wrong personality fit) or is paying the price for taking a career break.

ah
i am a SAHM with three children all at school. I am never going to get another job unless something drastic happens.
I had a pretty senior job which i did bloody well for about 18 years. At the time i was the first woman hired to do that job ever . Loads of women work in that role now . After first DC I worked still. i am now at home.
Tis life, circumstances and choice.
i don't feel I need to justify myself. i wish fewer women did feel they need to justify themselves - and why is it mostly to other women.

niecie - where have I 'attacked' women who stay home? You really are a one track record and it's getting boring. I value education, training and getting a good career because it enables more choices. You seem to have a problem with that. For the record, I am not jealous of riven. If I wanted to sit on my arse all day I could do. I choose not to. And I never said riven was either - she was the one who mentioned it as a hypothetical possibility and said she thought she would enjoy it. I wouldnt; I think I'd find it boring. But it's not riven's reality anyway - she works extremely hard caring for her dd who has a profound disability.
And for the record yet again (yawn) NOT all of us who work have repetitive, dull 9 to 5 office jobs. I don't.
I am not attacking SAHM. I believe that people should put themsleves in a position where they have choice AS FAR AS POSSIBLE and then make a choice, being aware of the potential upsides and downsides of that choice.
Me? I am a working parent, as are most parents. I don't define myself by my work, but my professional success is an important dimension of my life. I have lots of other exciting elements to my life too. And the most important thing in my life is my family. I am not missing out on anything!

Quattro - that was a really good post.

actually I think that riven wouldn't get bored sitting on her arse all day. i strongly suspect that there would be a peace invloved that would be hard to compare.Until you have immersed your every waking moment - and many ofthose when you are supposed to have your eyes shut- then having nothing to do doesn't really describe it.
eh Riven?

Quattro is talking about real people. And I have come across people like that too - mothers who have children in school all day who are bored/frustrated because they need more going on in their lives. A lot of them admit to it when they're honest. Yes, it is perfectly possible to fill up your day, but it isnt easy, in reality, to do it day in day out and feel you are having a worthwhile life. I also know some women in this position who are using the time for study, broadening their mind, retraining, worthwhile voluntary work etc BUT they are a minority!
It sometimes feels on these threads as though 'work' is a dirty word, which is odd, because if someone dares to say that a SAHM with a young baby is 'doing nothing', she'd be the first to indignantly say 'But I AM working damn hard all day!!' Work does not have to be dull. It can be exciting, stimulating, worthwhile. But it comes back to what quattro said, if women limit themselves, then they will end up in boring repetitive low status jobs.
And you know, I have yet to meet ANY parent who doesnt want their own child to aspire to doing well at school, getting qualifications and achieving well in their life. If that's what you want for your child, it rather suggests that you want it for yourself. When I see posts saying, 'Actually I don't mind if my dc doesnt have aspirations. I don't care whether they get qualifications, or training, or a decent job', then I'll believe that some women really don't think this is an important issue.

findtheriver
TBH I think that is tosh in as much as both 'sides' of this debate can be equally unpleasant.
Work is not a dirty word. I have huge respect for working mums. I know how hard it is - I've done it.It is also very rewarding.
And I do not romanticise being A SAHM. It is tough actually - it is tough to keep what you do rewarding and relevent. It is hard to cope with the loss of status when you leave a good career.
Both are difficult and both have their rewards.
And both 'sides' of this debate have their mobs of muppets who try to make their point by stereotyping and stigmatizing the other. I have read just as many sad and sorry posts slagging off SAHM as WOHMs. Both are equally pathetic.
It is a shame actually because a group of bright committed mothers who wish to expand and support choices for women would be pretty fearsome. But that is not going to happen when we are all too happy taking cheap shots.

I am not taking issue with the conetent of any of your posts btw or your general stance. I just object when one side cliams they are being attacked when both sides do it. It always strikes me as hilarious as a footballer complaining that an opponent dived. well duh !

pagwatch - I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Wouldnt it be good if these issues could be discussed in an intelligent way? I think part of the problem is that when posts are flying thick and fast, some people have trouble maybe remembering who has said what (I'm being charitable here - I hope it's forgetfulness and not maliciousness) and they end up making personal attacks or accusing people of saying things that they haven't.
Posieparker has definitely fallen into this. My posts on this thread have been very measured and basically have talked about the importance of choice. I have also talked about myself, and how good and empowering it is when you can successfully combine an interesting work life with family. Which is exactly what this forum is for, to discuss our own experiences. I was therefore quite shocked when posieparker started attacking me and saying that I called SAHM 'thick' or 'stupid' or 'lazy' because I have never made those comments about SAHM. I know other posters have, and I don't agree with them. It then degenerated into total nonsense with posieparker making ridiculous statements like 'I know I'm a lot younger than you' (WTF??? - mad!!!!). Clearly posieparker herself has some issues, she seems very bitter and disatisfied, but I have been at pains to point out that I don't think she is typical of SAHM. She has other issues about her unhappiness which may or may not have anything to do with whether she is home or not. The OP, Milkgoddess also, I know from other threads, has a tendency to be rather disingenuous - she often starts controversial threads, and then seems to disappear!! Apart from popping up to make inane posts about how she could earn a bit of money doing some locum work when her kid is at school but she doesnt want to, so 'ner ner na ner ner' (again WTF????). I thought that post was rather thoughtless as some of the women reading reading it may not have any choice about whether to work, and for some of them, the hourly rate quoted by the Milkgoddess may seem quite a lot of money. But if we're being charitable we could forgive her...she comes across as very PFB, as if she's the first woman to ever have a baby in the history of humankind, and she comes over a bit excited about it sometimes!!
I am very fortunate (in that I have 3 lovely children who thankfully are abled and don't require any of the kind of care that riven has to provide.) And I mean fortunate, because that is something that none of us have control over. And I have worked hard too to achieve what I have in life. I wasnt born with any great advantages. I attended a 'bog standard' comp.I studied hard, went to University, and have developed an exciting, dynamic career. I have also worked hard (and had an element of luck!) in doing very nicely with property. If I wanted, I could afford to not work. I choose to for all sort of reasons, money is one of them but NOT the main one.
You are absolutely right pag - this issue deserves intelligent debate.

They do get heated so quickly don't they.
but one day we will have a measured debate. Shall we hold our breath ?
.

I think we'd burst

Hey FTR, how are you

Pagwatch - you said "And both 'sides' of this debate have their mobs of muppets who try to make their point by stereotyping and stigmatizing the other. I have read just as many sad and sorry posts slagging off SAHM as WOHMs. Both are equally pathetic."

Did this thread not start by attacking wohms? I think it did, although it was phrased defensively.

The main point for me in all this is that women consistently underachieve in the workplace/earnings stakes because of some myth that it's somehow impossible to "have it all" (no it isn't girls - you're being sold down the river) or that your children will somehow suffer which is a form of not-so-subtle emotional blackmail.

Some of us don't want it all.