To think most men wouldn’t survive a year living the life of an average woman?

[ThatRealLimeBee]

The daily grind of sexism, safety worries, juggling expectations, emotional labour… Most men have no idea. AIBU to think they’d crumble under the load if they had to swap lives with us for a year?

This isn’t proof.
I work in an education faculty at a university so I’m very familiar with the research.
With regards nursery, you need to ensure that the research is reputable. I’ve seen many a poster on MN quote research from religious or political groups which which has an agenda around ‘traditional values’ so presents research in a way to support their views.
If you look at the reputable research then the overall message is the quality of the childcare provider is key.
For under 2’s childcare is neutral. Meaning it’s not beneficial but it’s not detrimental either (this is assuming a quality provider)
For over 2’s there are multiple benefits to be seen including social and educational. Children who attend a nursery or pre-school are typically more ‘school ready’ than those who haven’t.

In relation to longer term educational outcomes then the following can have an impact.

Socioeconomic status is shown to have an huge impact. Poverty is pretty much the most important factor in poor educational outcomes and this is linked to parental education and employment.

High quality early education can also have a positive impact of future outcomes.

School - attending a good quality school. These two factors are also linked to socioeconomic status as good nurseries and schools are often (but not always) in more affluent areas.

Supportive home environment is of course important.

Access to resources and extra curricular activities (again, linked to socioeconomic factors)

There is no evidence that a SAHP is beneficial to educational outcomes . It’s far more complex and is actually linked to the home environment rather just having a parent at home.
There is increasing evidence that a mothers employment is beneficial for educational outcomes (particularly in girls) and it’s the parental involvement overall that is key rather than whether they are working or not.

Interestingly, I have a team of academic staff who teach on early years education courses and childhood studies and they all used childcare and returned to work. Make of that what you will!

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/eric-bettinger-why-stay-home-parents-are-good-older-children

An interesting read.

https://www.aecf.org/blog/parental-involvement-is-key-to-student-success-research-shows

I have the time and flexibility to do all of these things consistently (they are in my job description)- my ability to do these would have been dramatically hindered by my previous career, so that had to go!

Not surprisingly you’re missing the point @ThankYouNigel
The point is that just being a SAHM does not guarantee better outcomes for your children.
The home environment you are providing is what’s important. You are doing that as a SAHP and I’m doing that as a working parent. Your way isn’t automatically better.

I don’t particularly like using anecdotes but this one seems appropriate. My step sister is a SAHM. Her mum has convinced her that nurseries are bad so she’s never sent her 3 year old to one. She’s never worked and neither has her boyfriend ( he comes from a community where generational unemployment is the norm). They live in poverty.
Their child is developmentally and socially way behind where he should be. There isn’t a single book in their house and they live off takeaways.
Are you saying that environment is preferable to a household where the parents are invested in their child’s development and education but they also happen to work?
No it’s not. And that’s what the research tells us. It’s complex and nuanced and certainly not the black and white picture you paint.

I have a PhD in education which drew upon some of this research happy to debate this all day long!

Me and my DH do all these too. Again. Not exclusive to you as a SAHP.

OK, your credentials sound great. I have read a lot of studies and research about cortisol, brain development and how levels of this are much higher the longer a baby/toddler is in nursery, suggesting shorter hours are better. I have seen research that suggest it’s harmful for the 1-2 age bracket, neutral for 2-3. I have seen research which is more positive towards childminders.

The research seems less controversial for 3-4 year olds- I haven’t found any negative myself, and actually plenty of positive. Would you agree? I thought the government funded hours from term after third birthday was actually spot on, and that all 3-4 year olds should have access to a school based nursery, ideally led by a qualified teacher. I was pleased to see Labour wanting to utilise empty classrooms to expand and improve provision for 3-4 year olds- I do think this is beneficial (open to opinions to the contrary).

I do agree that if you are at home then that is such a shame not to utilise your time in reading books (which are free from the library), preparing home cooked meals (you can buy healthy, non-branded food very cheaply from ALDI/Lidl), etc. To me the point of it is to invest your times and efforts into your children, so yes that is a loss.

I do think the morale of some mothers is on the floor, I wonder is she is feeling depressed and lacking support/confidence in what she is capable of achieving? It’s a shame if nobody in the community has suggested any simple activities. There is so much to do which is very simple but hugely beneficial, eg naming all the different foods whilst doing the weekly shop together, singing nursery rhymes, visiting the park.

Surely you must be aware though that it depends on the job? You are very lucky if you have a job and also a partner with a job that does enable you to still do all these things- I’m not sure that is the norm. Threads on here certainly suggest not.

We’ve suggested all of those things. She’s not interested.
She had a child to avoid working but isn’t interested in being a SAHP. She just wants to stay at home.

Of course I’m aware of that, it was part luck and part planning.
We are all different and have different circumstances. That’s the point we’ve been making all along!!!

You could say the exact same thing about women?

Of course, men don't experience the same pressures as women, because, well, they are men.

It would be like me coming here, saying, '

Is it fair to say most women would go bankrupt in 12 months if it weren't for men?'

It's a sweeping generalisation based upon traditional or somewhat outdated social norms.

A lot of the pressures that some people are hinting at are applied by other women. I've never known another group of people to put their own down as hard as women do to each other.

Well that is a shame, has she said why she’s not interested? Sorry I’m fascinated by this, why someone wouldn’t want to do lovely things to support their child? Does she lead on housework/gardening/care of elderly family members/volunteering? She has time to put to good use, such a shame!

In the words of Mrs Alena Kate Pettitt: ‘Ladies this is a job, not a holiday camp!’

Also, are there ever any circumstances under which you would consider being a SAHP if your child really needed you or expressed they would like that?

I would consider re-incorporating work through ongoing consultation and discussion about the realities of that with my children as they get older if they felt more money would be beneficial.

Could you be more out of touch with reality? There are hundreds of thousands of people who are workshy and simply do not want to contribute to society. There are many many people who abuse and neglect their children. Anyone who lives in the real world knows that. To act all surprised that someone like the pp’s stepsister isn’t cleaning her radiators and reading books to her children is laughable and ridiculous. Theres a reason why SAHPs on benefits get extra funded hours for childcare - the research shows that their children benefit from it because their parents are generally NOT providing a healthy and stimulating environment for them at all. Theres loads of research on it. Growing up with a non-working parent on benefits does not statistically provide a good start in life for a child.

You seem totally clueless and trapped in a middle class tradwife bubble where you convince yourself that the mum of seven on benefits whose kids aren’t even clothes properly is the good mum while the mum who dares to work to provide a good life for her DC is the shit one.

Haha nope.
She’s just lazy. She got pregnant at 17 to avoid having to work and because it’s what her friends were doing.
She resents that she lives in poverty but isn’t willing to work. Her child needs to go to nursery but she can’t even be bothered to do that.

You’re viewing being a SAHM through the lens of your experience but that’s not universal.

Fair points but men don’t face the same misogyny, fear and general additional burden that women face just by virtue of being female. My DS did not face to change his jogging route because a mini building site for house renovations popped up. My DH doesn’t have to listen to patronising mansplaining when the car has a problem. DS doesn’t have to consider his clothing and carry sanitary wear/painkillers in case his period comes on. DH doesn’t have stress incontinence brought on by a traumatic birthing. DH or DS will not lose out on jobs because they are in their prime child bearing years. DS and DH will likely never be a victim of revenge porn or DV (yes, females can be abusers but it is much much rarer).

There’s so much more hassle for women because women’s problems are not taken seriously and because a woman’s role as mother (should she have children) is not valued as much as it should be. Women are held to a significantly higher standard than men in society in almost every way.

But I’ll await the onslaught of male apologists to tell me women are just as bad as men etc etc.

If my child needed a parent at home then we’d share that as a couple. Neither of us would give up
work completely if at all possible.

If my DS asked me, the answer would be no. We’d address the reasons why he was asking but I wouldn’t be giving up a career and dramatically changing our financial situation on the whims of a child.
My DS loves my job, he’s travelled the world with me on work trips! He’d hate me to give that up.

There is no way in hell I would consult my child on whether she thinks it's a good idea for me to give up work and stay at home because she would like that when she has no comprehension of adults responsibilities or how things must be financed through work, no.

Are you aware that putting adult decisions on children is a form of child abuse and causes psychological damage to them because it undermines the safety they feel from an adult making all of the decisions? If is called parentification.

A lot of the way you speak about The One True Calling of motherhood screams enmeshment.

Women doing harm to other women is a socially/culturally learned phenomenon though.

When one looks at the abuse of girls through cultural ritualstic practices, it is very often women/mothers doing it to girls/daughters - so called “honour killings” different in that the male usually carries out the “punishment”. So FGM, Chinese foot binding, Indian suttee - women do these things to their girls so that they/the family confirm to cultural norms. Chinese mothers bound their daughters’ feet as they feared they would not attract a husband. Same with FGM. Mothers threw their child-bride daughters on the funeral pyres of their older dead husbands so that the family would not be cast out from the community.

Women putting down women in modern society is a form of this. Women are quick to step up to put down other women/apologise for male behaviour because they have been socially conditioned to do this. We see it on this thread multiple times sadly.

I went to a seminar recently where an eminent professor talked about how she manages work life balance. She was a single mum to a boy who is now a teenager. She spoke about mum guilt but she said that her son had told her that he is so proud of her and her career and he thinks that all children should have a mum who works and shows them what is possible. I think it’s so important to have female role models and I wish my parents had provided that rather than a mum who pretended she was the perfect housewife while actually being emotionally neglectful. Instead I looked to teachers and friends’ mums for inspiration and I never ever thought “I want to be like my mum when I’m older”. The exact opposite in fact.

So out of interest, you only have 1 child?

I genuinely think you may have both needed to make more adjustments if you had had even one other additional child.

Our child does need us more than I’d imagine many others do, due to his significant level of need.

And absolutely not. No.

I would never leave my job to be a full time parent, and would struggle on with the challenges we face by working for the rest of my life if necessary.

Parenting a SENd child is a lot, and can quickly become your whole identity if you let it. I wouldn’t let it. I need purpose and productivity outside of my role at home, and would buckle without it.

I love my role as a parent, and take it very seriously. But it’s not all I am, and I would never allow it to become all I am.

I understand that if you’ve had a bad experience and that will of course influence your overall perceptions. I get that.

Do you mind me asking how you were emotionally neglected? As this is an area which conscientious SAHPs are generally very keen to avoid causing?

That’s why we only have one! It was a choice.

Nope, really listening to your child is being attentive. Truly listening takes time. Children and teenagers do have their own opinions but of course don’t have the ultimate say- that’s up to the parents.

I do know many parents in real life who are actually taking long sabbaticals or changing their job to better meet the needs of much older children (late primary/secondary). That has surprised me actually.

Also, do you only have 1 child? Most of you who keep arguing with me on here seem to only have 1 child. Lots of Mums have a major readjustment after the birth of their second child. Those with 3 plus children again often find things much harder to juggle. So you may feel different if you were to go on and have more children actually.