I'm literally ready to scream. Girl with irritating mother pt 2

[Balloonhearts]

No, this time I really am going to drown myself in the rain butt. Unsupervised minors be damned.

Link to previous thread for those who don't know what I'm ranting about. www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5359192-really-irritated-with-this-girls-mother?latest=1

So Summer riding club started yesterday. Girl from previous thread is enrolled and in my group.

Firstly her mother has signed her up AGAIN with the wrong weight on her form. And a note in the Need to Know section saying 'No large horses.' Obviously we realised and assigned her the correct size horse for her height, weight and experience. They got on swimmingly, Carol (The horse) is very sweet and biddable and excellent with beginners.

Mum came to get her yesterday and did her nut.

Now admittedly Carol does have quite a fast extended trot, which the girl, I'll call her S, was rising beautifully to. It's easier when going faster. More impulsion, means a bigger upwards assist and she has pretty much cracked her rising trot yesterday. She was happy, beaming and full of confidence. Not unhappy with her assigned mount in the least.

Anyway, mum went off on one about having requested no large horses and her wishes being ignored. First of all Carol isn't large. She is a 15.3 Thoroughbred with quite a dainty build. Not big or intimidating at all.

Mum insisted on a smaller horse today. This is difficult because S is both tall and heavy. Most of the ponies can carry a max of 10 stone and, again, we need to reshuffle riders to accommodate this.

The only one small enough to accommodate her is a 14hh cob called Mickey. He can carry her but neither of them are particularly comfortable. She has her stirrups hiked up to be able to apply aids correctly. This is throwing off her centre of balance and making her rising trot difficult and Mickey unbalanced. She's too long in the leg for riding him to be comfortable and with a weak core to start with, she is struggling.

Mickey is also a bit of a twat. If his rider is annoying him, he bucks. He's really more an intermediate horse than beginner. He's sweet natured but easily annoyed by an unsteady leg.

Today has mostly been teaching her to sit a buck, with limited success as Mickey is nothing if not persistent. She is not enjoying him at all.

Are we really unreasonable to tell this woman bluntly at pickup to either wind her neck in and leave the horse choosing to us or find somewhere else to ride?

I feel awful for S as she's a lovely kid and clearly mortified by her mums behaviour.

Definitely do this.

It's your risk assessment. Your professional knowledge and more importantly your insurance. If the child was to have an accident you need to be able to justify why she was on an unsuitable horse.

The mother can choose to leave her in your care or take her home.

Also ask the mother to ask the child which day she preferred, making progress on Carol or ending up falling off with Mickey.

I gave you a YANBU because clearly the mother is BU.

However, YABU creating another thread about this. Surely by now you've figured out you need to have an honest discussion with her separately from her daughter and they either stay and the daughter rides the horse you've picked or they go to a different school and best of luck. It's really not that hard.

Basically if you put the child on a pony she is too big for and therefore can't maintain her balance on and falls off you are potentially negligent and this needs to be clearly stated to the mother. At your licensing inspections and BHS is the centre is approved your accident book will be looked at and four falls off the same horse in a day could be flagged up. If the mother is adamant she can't ride the bigger TB then say you have no option but to have all her lessons conducted solely in walk to prevent falls - I'm sure that won't go down well. Obviously, she can't ride your other ponies due to horse welfare issues so these are her only options or she goes elsewhere.

As someone who owned a riding school for over 30 years I am well aware of how demanding and ridiculous some clients can be but as a professional you need to stand firm and not pander to the requests of people like this.

Tbh you should have tackled this as soon as she demanded she not have Carol. Instead you’ve again kow-towed to her rather than saying that she isn’t safe on another horse.

Tell her it'll invalidate your public liability insurance if her daughter is put onto an unsuitable horse. It's out of your hands. The kid keeps falling off so it's an unsafe situation and you can't risk it any further.

You're clearly trying to accommodate the lovely S but her mother is being a nightmare. I think the PP wording you commented on is good. The mother has a choice. The right size horse for S that she enjoys and doesn't fall off Vs the mother's ideal sized horse that doesn't work for S and she keeps falling off. How would the mother prefer the lessons to go?

The mother clearly has NFI. You and the owner need to go all elf'n'safety on her arse - she must leave the decision to you, you have weighed the girl and looked at her build, considered her fitness and level of competence, she needs a horse like Carol to get the best experience and for her to be as she as possible.

If she leaves you a shit review... I make a policy of reading shit reviews. I was booking the DC and me in once for a ride, on holiday, at a place we'd never been to before. There were a lot of lovely glowing reviews and one shit one ('The horse was too big for me... very badly trained... kept trying to run... I was scared...'). This review had the absolute stonker of a reply from the owner of the stables, along the lines of, 'You had a form to fill in. You told me you could do X and Y so I assumed that you could, actually, do X and Y. I mounted you on a well schooled-horse in line with the info on your form (and your height and weight in person). You had ample opportunity to try the horse in the arena and express any concerns. I am sorry that you did not enjoy your hack, but an accurately completed information form would have allowed us to find you an appropriate mount.'

I booked us in. I filled all the forms out accurately, to the point of getting the DC to hop on the scales. We had a bloody fabulous ride. One of the best ever.

I'm afraid you need to be honest with her and explain how difficult it has been accommodating her DD when the weight given on the info sheet is not accurate.

You gave her the right size horse for her height and weight - if the Mum can't handle that her child needs a bigger horse that's her problem, realistically.

If she's not happy she can take her child elsewhere.

I think she may well find that other places are way less accommodating. A shame for the DD, obviously, but you can only do so much and this Mother is taking the pure piss.

Get the owner to explain to the mother that the child is too tall and heavy to ride any pony other than Mickey. Fact
Then Explain Mickey is not the easiest to ride and giving the kid a hard time and she was enjoying riding Carol more.
Explain you enjoy teaching the kid but they have to understand the size and ability constraints that you need to operate within.

I'm not the head instructor, more a groom/instructors assistant/person who leads hacks and makes sure no one does anything crazy dangerous so it's not my call but I've videoed her riding Mickey and Carol (yes her name really is Carol, she shows under Sweet Caroline, though it isn't her registered racing name.)

I've showed the owner both videos and she agrees with my. She is within Mickey's limit for weight but too tall and too inexperienced. She isn't getting back on him, period. We tried him, it didn't work.

He's unlikely to hurt her as she has only managed to get him to hold a trot for 30 seconds at a time and it was the slowest, least animated trot he could possibly get away with but it's not nice constantly getting bucked off and covered in sand.

It's going to be Carol or no one.

Oh wow, I remember your previous post about this poor girl and her mother.

I think like others say, spell it out to her: you've chosen the appropriate horse for her. It's this horse or they can walk.

And I wouldn't refund her unless you have a waiting list that will fill it instantly. Mum is the one in the wrong here: she's already been told off about lying about her daughter's weight after the last camp; she did it again anyway; and you provided the only available suitable horse for her size and experience. She can lump it.

If the child is 13 stone then she is really too heavy for Carol as well- especially if she is a 15.3hh light weight TB.

Do you not have any 14.2 - 15hh weight carriers? I would have thought they would be a priority at a riding school.

I would also tell the mum that the choice of horse/pony is at the discretion of the Riding School and if she is not happy then she will need to take her daughter elsewhere.

"With respect Mrs Dickhead, we are the best judge of our horses and who is most suitable for each student. This is based on numerous factors including rider ability and size, and horses temperament. If you do not trust our judgement, you are very welcome to try another riding school if you'd rather" 🖕🖕🖕

Then ask S in front of mum which horse she'd rather have tomorrow 😈

I agree with this. Honestly, OP, I would just spell it out for her, politely but firmly. I would add to the above that she's welcome to go elsewhere but any reputable riding school will tell her the same, and even a school that doesn't weigh them (questionable) will take one look at her height and put her on a horse, not a pony.

Side note: I am livid that a parent would rather put her inexperienced kid on a shorter mount that bucks constantly than a safe, nice kind sensible big horse who will teach her child how lovely it is to ride. Absolute madness.

I think you should read up on your legal obligations towards children before you do another lesson.

I don't understand why you are still wasting time with this woman? I know it's difficult running a riding school these days, in fact it must be a nightmare, but it's quite simple.

You are responsible for the safety of the riders and well-being of the animals, you decide who rides what horse or pony, and that's that, it is not open to discussion. If she doesn't like it she can go elsewhere.

I understand the girl is 13, so old enough to help out here. I feel sorry for her, poor lass.

I assume she much prefers riding Carol so it shouldn't be too hard to get her onside. Have a chat and do a pincer movement on the annoying mother.

Agree with this. You guys are the experts, not her.

You could say what you've said here about falling-off frequency versus distance to fall.

The mother sounds as though she is in denial about her daughter's weight. That's not your problem. You are the expert in this situation, and frankly, if the girl has fallen off a horse 4 times you are running the risk that she injures herself. You are the professional, you need to lay down the law. Other posters have suggested nice ways of phrasing it.

PS Carol is a great name for a horse!

From your posts you clearly understand the risks. Whether the mother herself does or not, it should still be your decision. You will be judged responsible by it. If the owner overrides your judgement (after all, they hold the reins of the business) I suggest you put your position in writing to them. I hope this would protect you in the event of an accident, even if you were unable to refuse their instructions. You are saddled with two unstable individuals here. But hay-ho.

I haven’t ridden since I was a kid, and I’m 60 now, but what you have said here makes perfect sense to me, and I can’t understand why this mum can’t comprehend it too.

Frankly, as a complete non-rider with no knowledge of riding or horses, she should be trusting you as the experts, not insisting you follow her ignorant guidelines. I’d be asking her why, when it is clear she doesn’t trust you, her dd is in your classes!

Here’s the thing: horses are not Lego bricks you just swap in and out based on personal preference. They are living animals with needs, temperaments, and limits and matching horse to rider involves experience, judgment, and safety considerations. That’s your job, not the mother’s.
I would suggest you tell Mother, to stop being a mare 🐴🐎🎠 (or maybe not!)

then explain to her thick head –

Horse/rider pairings are safety decisions.

You've given her the benefit of the doubt, but Mickey is not working for S.

S did well on Carol. She was safe, happy, and progressing. That’s the best-case outcome.

Carol is not “large” by any realistic riding standard, especially not for someone of S’s height and weight.

You're not comfortable continuing with unsafe pairings.

Have to say that I took my worst falls off the back of a 13.2 Appaloosa cross. When I got too tall for her I rode various 16h+ cobby hunting types with no issues. I haven't ridden for about ten years (too fat!) but my recollection is that small ponies whilst lovable can also be absolute shits and can smell a newbie a mile off.

You just need to be straight with the mother. Her daughter is too heavy for the ponies to be safe and comfortable. It’s not acceptable for the ponies to be exposed to a rider that makes their experience unpleasant. They will get injured and so will the girl. Your responsibility is to the animal and the safety of the rider, both with were compromised by trying to appease the idiotic mother. Unfortunately you can’t spare the daughter any embarrassment, you just need to be blunt.

Does make me giggle when people make the mistake that ponies are smaller so therefore safer & sweeter.

Nooooo! Definitely not the case 😂

I've got a new forest pony, a shetland & a 16.2 horse.

I can't let a child anywhere near the shitland he'd prob take their arm off or turn & double barrel them (he's a rescue & wasn't handled as a youngster so semi forgive him)

The Forester is strong & opinionated & bucks if you put a child on him. He does all the pony 'jokes' bucks off the child, scrapes the child off against the side of the school, fence, ongoing traffic etc. I'd say he has a minimum weight limit of 7 stone as anything else just comes straight off .

The horse is an angel - school master type, ISH definitely some draft in there as chunky. I've put my 3 year old niece on her, MIL in her 80's rides her.

OP You could try explaining it in terms of native ponies which are bred to survive in mountain & moorland etc versus horses which are bred to be ridden so are more trainable, responsive etc (I know that's not the whole truth but helps explain why shitlands, foresters & welshies are the way the are)