To take DD’s trust fund..

[BlueFlamingo55]

AIBU to take part of DD’s trust fund to pay for our new house?

DD has quite a modest trust fund (~£30k) that I had promised to give her this year since she is now 19. The money is my inheritance from DF but instead I decided to put it away for DD when she was younger to help with her university costs, first car, house deposit etc.

Life didn’t turn out quite how I had expected it to and I have just come away from a messy divorce and am now having to purchase a new house in my 50s.. I’ve found a home that both DD and I love but my deposit (my share of the equity money from the marital home) wouldn’t be enough. I therefore decided that I’d take half of DD’s trust money to top things up. I do not want to do this and it was never the plan but it’s the only way I’ll be able to afford this house. We’ve explored cheaper options further outside of town but DD refuses to live in any of them (and I quietly agree with her, I much prefer the area this house is in)

I made the mistake of telling DD my plans re: the trust fund and she has gone absolutely ballistic, for want of a better term. Saying that I’m stealing her money and how will she possibly be able to afford her travel plans etc etc. Apparently I’m trying to ruin her life. I’ve reminded her that I help her out financially 24/7 and she is not hard done by but there is absolutely no talking sense into her. She has refused to speak to me all week.

Am I really the worst mother in the world for taking £15k in order to pay for good, permanent accommodation for us both?

Only one of us is confidently giving legal advice, on the basis of incompetence and contradictory information from the OP and the strength of a relative’s legal qualifications.

She’s been unclear. But she has described it as a trust arrangement in her opener and as her daughter’s money.

You will know of course (either by blood or marriage) that no specific structures or even written documentation are required to form an enforceable trust arrangement.

If she has already given the money to her daughter (on which the evidence is contradictory. Not to mention we only have OP’s account) then she is subject to legal obligations and needs legal advice, from a lawyer, not a MN forum and not a lawyer’s relative, best mate or neighbour.

I have a law degree, do you?

I'm an actual lawyer, with a big desk and certificates on the wall and all that. While I've never done any private client work I have for the last 15 years worked in and around the pensions industry, which does require a decent working knowledge of trusts. I appreciate I may as well shout this into a bin but anyway:

It is perfectly possible for the money to be both in an account in the OP's name and held in trust for the daughter. The whole point of a trust is that the legal and beneficial ownership of property is split, or in other words that one person holds the property for someone else. You can very easily find savings accounts that make this easy to do from the outset, you just fill in a simple form in.

As a few people have pointed out, there is no requirement under English law for a trust to be in writing. If the OP at some point validly declared a trust over the savings account then she is holding it in trust for the daughter. However, given the OP's lax use of language in that regard it seems unlikely that there was ever any real intention for a genuine trust arrangement to be created and (and this is the really important bit), even if there was it will be exceedingly difficult for the daughter to prove that. There has been talk of the daughter possibly suing the OP to establish that the money is held on trust; the only outcome of that will be that the whole £30k and more will be gobbled up by legal costs. I mean, I'm always up for people spending money on lawyers - we've got to eat too - but it would be madness here.

Mind you from the sounds of things the daughter might sue the OP and then expect the OP to pay for it.

I actually do, but I do not give legal reckons on the Internet on the basis of my family's law practice. Like probably the majority of people with a law degree, I don't practise law.

Perhaps the problem is how you have gone about it.
You promised to give dd the money when she was 19. Made it clear that the money was hers. It's been sat there for 17 years.
Then, you decided to use £15k of it for your house purchase and told her what you would be doing.
That's very much an 'I'm the parent you're the child' stance. Discussing it properly with your 19 year old may have had a different outcome.

Then the OP can go ahead and buy cheaper property on outskirts of town that daughter refuses to move to and dayghter can take her 30k and go live elsewhere.
Or daughter can accept that to live in area she prefers, her mother needs to use some of the money that she had promised to daughter to be able to afford this option.

I almost guarantee if daughter insists on wanting the full 30k, she will blow her way through it at 19yrs of age. Then most likely move back in with mum and moan about the area she has to live in.
In daughters eyes, mum will be the baddie no matter what decision she makes.

Give her part ownership of the house
It's then an investment for her, see a solicitor with her and put it in writing
Presumably she inherits the whole house when you die anyway.

Perhaps divorce and upheaval making daughter's emotions run high for her and you , I would look at it morally/ emotionally not legally, so give it time and try to communicate with her
Perhaps s get some specs on cheaper houses and go through options with her,
So that she is involved, she's an adult treat her as such and involve her in the decision making, even if at the moment she's not behaving like one.
There are always plenty of houses to buy, don't get fixated on the one you have found.

I think it's the communication that's been a problem here. I really like what a poster said upthread (sorry, can't remember who) which was 'You're treating her like a child but expecting an adult response'. You should be asking for her consent to lend you the £15k. You can't tell someone for all their lives that they've got £30k coming and then swipe half of it away at the last minute...it's her money as you told her it was for years and years.

Sit with her, discuss the issue, tell her you'd like her to have a stake in the house. That you will either pay her back over time, this will help her not splurge it all and give her an income when she's at Uni OR she can have an interest in the house and any increase in value in line with her stake. This is the adult conversation to have - it's a discussion where you both need to air how you're feeling and acknowledge each other's feelings. If she won't lend you the money, you need to find a property that you can afford and she has no say in it. She's going away anyway. Keep getting this wrong and you will damage your relationship forever. Apologise to her and try to move forward.

Her subject says trust which is wrong. Her posts says she placed the money in a savings account in her name that is not a trust.

That can be a trust arrangement.

A verbal arrangement doesn't count.

Provided the intention, beneficiaries and subject are clear, and provided it’s not land or something to come into effect upon a death, a verbal arrangent is sufficient, from case law.

In practice, obviously, the sensible thing is to document a trust.

As for the account not being in the daughter’s name, that’s actually a necessary condition of it being a trust, not something that rules it out (if the beneficial ownership and the legal title were with the same person it would in no way be a trust arrangement).

I have a savings account as well in my name does that mean it belongs to my children?

The op has confirmed that the money is in a savings account not a trust. Anyone who is new to the thread please read the ops posts.

No.

Thank fuck for that you had me worried then.

You could turn it into a trust though, by telling your child that the money was theirs and that you were keeping for them, especially if you described it as a trust and were specific about which funds you were taking about, say funds that you kept ringfenced from money you treated as your own.

It sounds like the OP may well have been doing that. She’s been pretty unclear. But if she’s created a trust she can’t just decide to take the money because her circumstances have changed.

We don’t know whether any of this is documented or not. If not, then it would be pretty difficult to litigate, and I’d certainly not advise the daughter to that. They should obviously talk this out. But if there are letters or emails over the years referring to these ringfenced funds as the daughter’s and calling it a trust fund then that’s documentation of intent, beneficiary and subject.

It depends if you told them it was for them or not?

The op put it into her own savings account. What proof will her daughter have that it was meant for her?

They'll have to prove it my word is not enough.

Neither of us know. I certainly wouldn’t advise her to sue.

The fact OP’s described the arrangement to us as a trust, and described the funds as her daughter’s, and ringfenced them though are pretty good signs that she had given the funds to her daughter and that her intention was to hold them in trust for her.

But I’m not interested in arguing whether this specific case is or isn’t a trust arrangement. I’m just trying to correct the many many posters who have said things like “it can’t be a trust because it’s in OP’s name” (often with an implied or stated “read the thread, idiots”).

That shows a misunderstanding of the basic nature of a trust, and isn’t helpful to OP or anyone else who is in a similar situation.

There isn't any proof no. In families when parents tell us things we tend to believe them. Who knew legal contracts needed to drawn up regarding money that has been promised from an actual parent.

@evelynevelyn The op confirmed what type of account it is, and of course you wouldn't advise her to sue she would lose. I have attached a photo of the ops posts.

The ops circumstances has changed and its very entitled of her to think she should get all the money. Can you imagine the reason she gives to her friends as to why she is not talking to her mother. She won't be trusted herself and looked at like an entitled madam.

You have failed to understand this point despite it being explained several times:

The money can be in a savings account in OP’s name and be held in trust. No special account type is needed. No special structure. No written documentation.

What matters are the three legal elements mentioned above.

Obviously in practice trust arrangements usually are documented. And there are trusts that are set up with special structures and accounts. That’s perhaps what’s confusing you.