To think a lot of women are “dating down” just to avoid being alone?

[ThatPeachLemur]

I’ve seen too many brilliant, beautiful women mothering dusty men and calling it love.

I don’t think for a lot of women, a violent man is still better than no man at all. Considering how many women are murdered while trying to leave the relationship or after having left, I think many women stay because they are too terrified to leave and don’t want to die. And if he threatens to kill you when you tried to leave him, that is not an idle threat. It is a very real threat.

From the many times I’ve read or seen on the news about a woman being murdered by her ex/husband/partner, the woman had already been to the police and a restraining order or protection order (depending on what it is called in your country) had been issued. It’s not worth the paper it’s written on. I have known women who wanted to press charges for assault and the police refused. If you can’t rely on the police protecting you from being murdered then is it any wonder that some women choose to stay?

How many men portray themselves as a decent man in order to win the affections of the women they are interested in? For how many women is the relationship good at the beginning only for it to change once the man feels that he has her trapped
or vulnerable. It is fairly well known that abuse can start during pregnancy or after having a child.

I hope more and more women recognise red flags earlier in the relationship. And I hope that men are increasingly held accountable for assault in domestic violent situations.

Right now, how it is, is that if you are a man and want to get away with assault get a girlfriend.

@Chiseltip

Except when those women want a family.
Our parents, and every generation before them "settled", it's only this current generation of women who think they are special and "deserve" more.
I wonder what will become of all those women?

Well presumably they will raise families on their own without the need for someone who they don't love in their life?

Sounds like something to celebrate! Why are you bemoaning the fact that people no longer "settle"?

I am so sorry your colleague assaulted you and obviously that's 100% on him.

I do wonder though - where on earth are you finding these boyfriends? I think at some point we as women have to take responsibility for our choices in men.

If we repeatedly choose the "shabby and second-rate" men, then there's something going wrong with our selection process. Maybe we're being blinded by good looks, maybe we've got childhood trauma that is messing with our instincts, I don't know.

No one is forcing anyone to date these men though. Ultimately it's the woman's choice.

I expect quite a lot of them will get used to the idea of not 'having a family'. It's not as if having children were any guarantee of happiness.

I think there's some dangerous narratives going on here about "deserving better" and "expectations"

If you think you deserve a 250k job but no one is offering you one, do you just stop working?

Why do you deserve an amazing man? Why you?

I sit at the older end of the age range and sometimes despair at the princessy attitude of some younger. And at the superficial checklist they have for what they deserve in somebody from day 1, whether that be looks, earning power, dishwashing ability, empathy, fidelity etc.

1. Relationships build. They are about you as a couple, not you as an individual. The point is that you are stronger as two. Things that you like about each other now will grate in the long term. Things that grate now may become your greatest support in years to come.

1. If everyone has high expectations, and those are for someone better than they rate themselves, then nobody is going to match at all.

1. What is wrong with having a partner who has weaknesses and deficiencies and foibles? Do you not? A partnership means that your strengths and weaknesses are balanced by theirs.

1. Men are immature. They improve as they get older. You are at your finest somewhere about 30, men probably about 45. You might argue that's because they've had 20 years of training from a good women. I know many women whose men are now "their rock" on which they anchor their later life, yet who felt differently in the earlier years when they had all of their energy and beauty.

I can't remember who said it, or even the cleber words, but the gist was "a person is happy when their expectations live up to their reality. Not the other way around"

Good luck finding a soul mate

It’s always been the way that women are aware that they have a finite fertility window. That some would settle for Mr ‘You’ll Do’ in order to be able to marry and have children.

But as modern medicine lengthens the fertility window and independent women have options to have a child on their own (and societal norms shift) I think women will rightly get more fussy.

The thing is the women who have decided to stay single and be happier aren’t on mumsnet making threads about their life because people come here with their issues and problems and those women don’t have them!

I do question daily on mumsnet why so many women set the bar so low and settle.

I wish every woman had the confidence and self worth to be without below standard men but unfortunately alot of women don’t want to have to live at a lower standard in life by living on one wage etc. Most women won’t agree that’s one of the main reasons they stay but it’s true.

I’d rather live in a crummy flat working more hours to support myself/kids and actually be happy rather than staying in an unhappy marriage in a bigger house!

Was ever thus.

I think donkeys years ago, when women weren't able to work, or later when they could, but low paid work; you would have women settling for men for a family, financial security and company.

Many men and women grew up seeing these examples of relationships, and thought they were normal. But the dynamic has changed. The reason of financial security has been eroded, the idea that you need a man to have a family is gradually changing, and whilst there is a fear of being alone- I think this may change in the future too.

There were always some good men. Of those that are left, some see the dynamic shift and step up. But some are burying their heads in the sand- either going from one relationship to the next wondering "why its always them" and not sure why its their bitch of an ex that always leaves- but their mates are fine. Or they become your incels.

I broke up with my ex because he was so lazy round the house. I hated that I'd become a maid and a nag. I was greatly impressed with the next man I dated, so kind and thoughtful - always driving round to mine so I wouldn't have to hit the motorway after work. 8 months in I realised he wasn't kind and thoughtful - just his house was an absolute fucking pigsty.

Some of us are just shit at picking them

Don’t blame yourself, it’s not to do with being bad at picking men.

You obviously have a kind heart and see the good in people. We can’t help the fact that sometimes people portray themselves differently in the beginning and then the mask slips.

The important thing is what we choose to do once we realise that.

You dont have to be similar in all respects.

If we have 20 traits and I'm better than you on 9 of them, should you look down on me, or me on you?

What happens when I'm better on 15 traits but you only value the ones you're better at.

The concept of inequality (with both people being judge and jury about their own worth) is frankly ridiculous when most people can't even see their own flaws.

But that’s my point🙄🤣 I haven’t met anyone recently that is worthy (again, in a non arrogant way) the worthy ones that I would be interested in are taken. There are far better women out there than men imo and some women will lower their standards and some won’t.

i’m not a desperate Deirdre that will just accept any old man just so I’m not alone!

I suspect most of the people posting on this thread underestimate their own flaws.

Me included.

I think marriage /kids is still held up as some sort of "ideal" to aspire to.Women have been more and more successful, and worked hard in their careers to get on and earn well. Men still seem to marry and stay married if they are attractive,kind and earn well .The ones looking for a new partner have often been kicked into touch by fed up ex partners ,because of laziness , infidelity and so on .Leaving a small pool of not so good guys !

My friend was married for almost 15 yrs to a horrorshow of a man. Was it because she settled for him and didn't think she could do better? No. She was genuinely in love, thought he was very complicated brilliant individual who had so much potential waiting to be unlocked. To everyone else he was stout, lazy cocklodger (could never hold down a job), narcissistic, constantly put her down and so crap in bed that my friend was shocked that her Tinder dates were more attentive. Eventually the scales fell off her eyes.

And she isn't the only one.

I wouldn't know how to stop my daughters fall for men like that and prevent coercive isolation.

If anything, men seem to date down more than women (due to the uneven sex ratios). I see it all the time

Tbf it's not always the proof. My DH's mum will not let anyone do anything when visiting. It's het home, her rules, her systems.
Yet DH is fully fledged prpper self sufficient adult. Actually probably more than me when it comes to domestics.😂
I always say not to take partner directly from home. DH and I bothe emigrated away from our families so really had to be self sufficient at 20. Our lives are actually pretty easy since we both know what's up. If that makes sense

Men who expect to be looked after, are lazy and entitled are, if nothing else, just boring, god they are dull. Never read, take no interest in accepting their opinion is mistaken or just plain wrong, don't see others as just equal human beings. And it's dull dull dull, mindnumbingly let's end the night here dull, like they suck all the interest in being alive out of you.

There are many great men, but they are looking for a relationship in their late 20s early 30s, they also want a family and to be a dad, they don't want to be an older dad and also want to have children with a women they can build a long and full life together with. And most of them do. And they stay in that life.

So I assume there must be, as you get into early 30s onwards a smaller and smaller percentage of men like this.

Early 50s here so I am trying to think of a male if I was unexpectingly single again with whom I could spend some fun time with, there is one who is a friend whom is divorcing because of a very controlling wife and he just couldn't do it anymore. He isn't local so let's think locally, of the single men in their 50s I know ......................nope. The ones that would be potentials are all married, for good reasons.

We get about 70/80 if lucky, active years on this planet, there is much to do, learn and enjoy, wasting a minute on a man who complains that you didn't wash the t-shirt he wanted, or you can't buy a new dress, or thinks pushing a mop around is beneath him, or won't clean a kitchen surface, or can't do a food shop, or even just thinks there are "blue jobs" (done for at most 5 mintues a week usually seasonable, usually once in a blue moon) and "pink jobs" (daily).

Even if you remove utter uselessness and abuse, there are many, oh so many, men that are just dull and suck the joy out of well everything. Yeah can totally live without that.

I see this, yes. But in the older generations, not in younger women. I know lots of strong single women in their 30s and 40s who aren’t putting up with stuff. It’s my mum’s generation, women in their 60s/70s martyring themselves for absolute losers they met online dating. I can think of so many. Women who divorced and raised their children and got back in the dating game in their 60s, who are scooping up any man who comes along.

These men are miserable, anti-social, some with criminal records. They don’t want to go anywhere, do anything, so they’ve stopped seeing friends, stopped travelling, ready to sell up their lovely homes to move into town because it’s closer to the pub, becoming carers for emotionally abusive old misers. It feels a bit like Dh and I trying to school MIL in social media and the internet because she’s like a 12 year old who believes everything she reads, shares every conspiracy theory, etc. Someone needs to give a crash course in the dangers of online dating to women who have not grown up with it and are now making every mistake.

No. If you can't find someone good for you it is better to stay single; male or female. I fundamentally believe a relationship ought to benefit both people more than if they were single; if it is not then it is unjust.

1. This demands a certain amount of unselfishness from both partners. Many women find they are not stronger together. When women had limited access to resources there was far more of an incentive to stay together - take this away and they find their partners are not contributing in the other ways that would make a relationship worthwhile. They are taking an unfair load in the relationship (emotional, financial etc etc and feeling drained). Not to mention that men are more likely to leave you for some sickness too means you can't always rely on them. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/X2Bgpl4wYvs

1. There are more than enough women happy to settle with anything for that to ever happen.
2. Woman being pushed by groom into a pool on her own wedding day h
3. Woman happy to be married to a paedophile:
4. I could go on but it is depressing. There will always be people willing to settle for anything.

1. You have to find the strengths and weaknesses that suit you and again this takes some work from both sides. All you can do is work on yourself. You can't make anyone do anything.

1. Unfortunately many men do not get better but stay immature. If you want children too then it is less risky not wait until he is 45. And why deal with an immature partner if you do not have to? This assumes that women are always better off in a relationship. They are not. If you are going to partner up it needs to benefit both people in the relationship. If an immature partner adds something positive to her life in other ways then great - if not then nah.

If your expectation is that you might stay single and you are fine with that I can not see a problem. If that makes me or other women a princess then hand me my tiara and tell me directions to my castle.

But expecting someone you have known for a decade, not to steal from you is not unreasonable.

If it is as you suggest, the women with the personality flaws, then their choice to stay single shows their self sufficiency and good sense. Problem solved, no?

I would say this is no longer the primary definition of 'marrying up / down' for women. I would say from personal experience over the years that women are more interested in men bringing equality to the relationship in terms of sharing childcare and being full social and emotional partners than earning more.

If women can earn enough for themselves independently, they have a choice. The model of the patriarchal family we have is based on suppressing women's ability to earn enough to be independent - historically entirely suppressing it - especially if she has children.

Men have been taught to over-value their economic contributions and to assume that it 'covers' their entire role in a partnership. This has also historically been a stressor for men, it's stressful to be valued for something you're often not in control of. Sadly, some men also see women as a kind of secondary aspect of life, valuing the comforts women bring but not the person.

I'm not surprised women are staying single because they are able to earn for themselves and respect themselves more. It also turns out that women's supposedly powerful innate desire for children is not quite as advertised: the trend accompanying women not partnering is women not being bothered about having kids.

I think many of us. women, are simply driven by biology. We want to have children, and the urge is stronger than our brain. And it's still much easier, financially safer and generally more convienient (due to legal matters, etc.) to have children together as a family in a marriage. Then problems appear down the line as children grow and sometimes we put up with crap or we split.

Removed the quote for some reason, In reply to CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone.

A read a theory why lots of women settle and esp marry men that are less attractive.
Scared they will leave if they were good looking.
Also they do most the cleaning/ cooking again as a way to keep said man.
Avoid arguments that might arise if they kept asking Man to help.
Lots of women like to feel more attractive and get ego boosts dating less attractive men.
I'm talking women is 7/ 8 out of 10
Man is below average.
Women can control less attractive/ passive men more easily.