AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

I expect you mean well but IMO ‘privilege’ is a grossly offensive word to apply to members of minority groups who can ‘pass’ in at least some circumstances. It shouldn’t be considered a ‘privilege’ for those people not to face direct violence, it’s just the wrong word. Also as a PP mentioned, not being visibly a member of a minority can sometimes mean people express their prejudices to you more directly as they don’t realise you are a member of the group they are abusing.

In any case, prejudice and discrimination affect people’s lives whether they can ‘pass’ or not, it’s not exactly a privilege to know that being treated decently is contingent on having to hide or lie about your Jewishness, and to live in fear of being abused if people found out about it. You’re ignoring the fact that people are psychologically affected by prejudice whether or not they can ‘pass’. Constantly having to gauge people’s attitudes and levels of hostility and whether it’s safe to disclose or not is its own form of stress. Feeling the need to lie and hide about a basic fact of your life is an effect of discrimination.

Aside from the fact that many Jewish people are visibly Jewish and the vast majority of Travellers are very obviously visibly Travellers, her statement completely minimises the persecution of these two groups in particular.

I have a family connection to the Travelling community and the overt racism and discrimination they face is appalling but totally socially acceptable. From 1940 until 1980, Scottish Travellers were the victims of forced assimilation and removal of children through the state sponsored “Tinker Experiment” in a deliberate attempt to wipe out their culture and community. Swathes of children were ripped away from their families and stripped of their identity. To liken this (and centuries of Jewish persecution) to bullying people with ginger hair is shameful. DA can speak about her experience of racism as a Black woman but she has no authority to speak on or compare the experiences of other minorities.

If anyone is interested, there’s a podcast called The Cruelty which investigates the oppression of Scottish Travellers during the “Tinker Experiment” presented by a member of the community.

And? That doesn’t give someone a free pass to spout uneducated rubbish. She can’t say racism is not as bad for Jewish people or travellers, because she’s never walked in their shoes. How arrogant and patronising she is.

I remember the swastikas carved into desks from when I was at school in the 90s, lovely for me to sit there wondering which of my classmates had found it amusing to carve a symbol representing a movement that led to some of my extended family being murdered.

But I potentially ‘pass’ as non-Jewish, so obviously this didn’t have any psychological affect on me.

surely it's all dependent on context anyway?
e.g. a black person living in kenya might not experience racism in their daily life.
a white person living in china might.
The experiences of a white jew and brown muslim might be very different depending on whether they live in Israel or Iran.

I don't understand how someone so experienced in politics has been stupid enough to double down on the same thing she got suspended for and withdrew last time. She needs to learn you don't have to actually say everything in your head, ffs. If that's what she thinks, she's entitled to her opinion but don't say it in a public forum after you've already been criticised for it once.

Yes, which is why she should stick to discussing the racism experienced by black people, and not arrogantly think she can tell us how Jewish people feel as opposed to how black people feel. Honestly every interview she gives - the gift that keeps on giving….

Diane is obviously unwell, you can see visible signs of physical deterioration, who knows what else is going on. She should retire.

Have explained why you mentioned Gaza even though its got nothing to do with Jews in the UK?

This!

Precisely. She should have talked about her own experience, instead she minimised the experiences of others whose prejudice she has never experienced.

As a black person, I've never heard anything but the truth come out of Abbots mouth.

Weird that, eh?

I also cant stand her and have not been able to since I heard her on Today about 30 years ago. Sending her kid to a private school - I dont actually have a problem with. But just refusing to answer the question about it when she was in government - just going silent? I lost all respect for her that day so hearing her opine on things over the years - yes, its built to not be able to stand her.

Plus a family member worked at houses of parliament for a while and said she was deeply unpleasant.

Stating fact is minimising the experience of others???

How is it fact? You think other people don’t experience instant prejudice? You think that Orthodox Jews don’t ever get instant prejudice based on how they look? Seriously?!?!

the abuse against her is not all down to racism it's because of what she says and what she stands for and frankly its wrong to accuse someone of racism because they criticise a black person.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think she's right (I'm Irish). But I also think that in general promoting anti racism is better than ranking different kinds of racism.

What facts? What she stated is not fact, it's her opinion.

It’s not a fact, she can’t know what a Jewish person feels and has experienced.

@livelovebehappy

Abbott is telling me how I feel. How all black people feel.

When the height of the riots last year, white racist rioters were performing 'white driver checks' , most of my Jewish friends in London would have passed. All Irish travellers in a car would have passed, all white red haired drivers would have passed, NONE of us blacks would have passed.

This is her entire fucking point.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/far-right-race-riot-uk-b2591803.html

I don't think DA is the only arrogant person, in question, here.

Not weird at all. Because you’re black, and she’s black, so why wouldn’t you? But how would you feel if you were Jewish, and were listening to her interview today on how she perceives what YOU should feel as a Jew, from someone who is black??

It's wrong to abuse someone for their opinions too and is probably part of the reason why so many politicians have security now.
I'm sure people disliking her is not all down to racism. But the twitter thing should give people pause for thought

If only she gave pause for thought, before she repeated her ignorance.

Yes, I think this is it. A lot of Jews do not “look” Jewish, whatever that means. If you look at reels of the Holocaust, vast majorities of the poor people featured could be people you’d see on the street of any British town. I am that sort of Jewish person, ie a thoroughly white Jew of Ashkenazi origin with dark hair and light eyes. Nobody has ever guessed or assumed I was Jewish unless told.

Meanwhile my DH is Italian and has suffered racism from people assuming he’s of Arabic origin. He’s dark skinned and I’m not. He’s experienced racism and I haven’t. Diane Abbott has experienced racism and I haven’t, because I’m white and I’d have to tell someone I was Jewish before they could treat me in an antisemitic way. I think that is all she was saying and I get it.

‘Most of my Jewish friends’ but not all?

This is why people are pushing back. Because not all people experience this prejudice the same. There WILL be Jewish people who experience instant prejudice on a regular basis. So the reason why people are saying that Abbott shouldn’t say these things is that they are not true in every case.

All prejudice is wrong. And instant prejudice happens to many people, regardless of the cause. And we need to recognise that and not assume that they don’t experience it. She is assuming it because she hasn’t experienced it for herself.

She should absolutely be shouting about this issue, but not by suggesting others don’t also experience it too, that’s redactive.