AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

I did used to enjoy her stint with Portilo.

Edited to correctly spell Portillo. Apologies as I've incorrectly spelt Abbott's name, in places.

Mr. Portillo has very successfully reinvented himself, hasn’t he?

He has, to be fair, Skyler.

I suppose it’s surprising what distancing yourself from your previous political views can achieve.

I agree with this. All racial/ethnic/nationality based bigotry needs stamping out. We all bleed red. No one is above another.

Well, he did some great train journeys 😉

Was never entirely sure they were his views. All of that macho posturing as Defence Secretary felt very much like an act.

You see, my starting assumption is that Diane Abbott (like Meghan Markle) can’t do right for doing wrong.

If she had not mentioned Jewish people, I can imagine that being seen as an example of Antisemitism and that she thinks the Holocaust is less worthy of mention than ‘Gingers’.
People who are visibly Other get attacked for that Otherness more than people who are less visibly Other. Antisemitism exists- those who are visibly Jewish (e.g. through their clothing or hairstyle) receive more hassle than secular Jews, all else being equal.
There is no way for a person to be ‘secularly’ Black. That’s all she is saying.

One foot in, one foot out of the Tory party, I always felt.

Mixed race female who has not experienced much direct racism. I don't think there should be a hierarchy of racism. I do think if racism is based on skin colour it is immediately obvious to the racist idiot than perhaps someone being racist to someone else who is not wearing something distinguishing their ethnicity.

That takes some twisting.

No she didn’t need to try to sum up the experiences of Jewish people. How would she know what their experiences are?

She has a point but not a very important one. Jews have experienced racism for millenia, not necessarily based on colour but on religion and religious practices. Most recently an act of racism was perpetrated against Jews resulting in c.1200 people dead and 250 hostages being taken (many now dead) not to mention that the racism included gang rapes and burning people alive. I have been appalled by many who seem to think this sort of racism is ok - as at Glastonbury a couple of weeks ago.
I do not believe in hierarchies of racism. All racism is bad. My problem with Diane Abbott (despite her being a trail blazer) is that she does have hierachies of racism and is racist herself in many of her utterances.

The issue is she didn't say that.

Everyone is explaining her stance when as an MP who is degree educated she should be able to say that clearly herself.

Incidentally this is a link to the article she was replying to:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/15/racism-in-britain-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue-it-is-far-more-complicated

And above at 12.54 Owolade's response to her latest doubling down.

She was never Education Secretary. I think you may be thinking of Ruth Kelly.

Yes, my mistake. She was on the exec committee I think, not in the cabinet. But still prominent enough to be interviewed on the Today programme and to simply refuse to answer questions she did not want to discuss.

She did not try to sum up the experiences of Jewish people at all. She gave one specific example of a detriment that black people were subjected to, that Jewish (and other) people were not.

And that’s a problem for you why specifically? I am not going to try to guess why, and would prefer that you tell us, rather than hinting.

I’ve been direct on this, no hinting. I think the experiences of Jewish people should be for them to say, not Diane Abbott.

There have been a couple of posters on this thread for example who have talked about what they’ve faced, you’ll see if you scroll back. @Longingdreameris one poster if you’re not sure who has done so.

There’s no ambiguity, the first thing people should remember is it’s for people within a group to determine the language used and to talk about their own experiences. Not for others to do that.

She said

'Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.
It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.'

My emphasis on the key part. That line and otherd are a complete distortion of history and denial of the reality of racism for those groups.

She said in her original letter: “Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism”. They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.
It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice.”
So she’s basically saying the prejudice and hostility Jews (and other groups) encounter is comparable to people being singled out for having red hair.
How is that not “summing up the experience of Jewish people”?

Thank you, @EasternStandard . This is what I have said too. She has every right to talk about her experiences as a black woman, but she cannot talk for Jewish people. Her comments were shocking, and wholly appropriate.

Thank you @SharonEllis for highlighting her exact words, in case others have forgotten. I am dismayed that so many people support her views, and are comfortable enough being openly Anti-semitic. The world is a very dangerous place if you are Jewish at present.

What she said is that, the detriments experienced by people, due to their skin colour, (racism) are not the same as those detriments experienced by other groups.

OK, she didn’t know her place, and see that only the prejudice experienced by white people counts. You are appropriating her experiences and demanding they are irrelevant to the experiences of Jewish people. I would suggest that’s racist.

After getting caught with his pants down yes. 😉

Did he? I quite fancied him when I was in my 30s. I never could tell what his sexual orientation was - not that it was any of my business.

Other way round.