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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

808 replies

Elephantiner · 17/07/2025 14:18

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

OP posts:
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16
neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 23:21

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 21:52

Out curiosity - what do mean being a jew of colour?

I mean clearly non-white (under apartheid in SA, I'd be "coloured"), and also with Jewish heritage. Which is exactly what any DNA test says about me too. Clearer?

neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 23:38

Oshio · 18/07/2025 22:31

True, but beyind looks, I think as you say Jewish people are much more easy to identify than people make out.

Practicing Jewish people often have signs typically on their clothing.

Many have highly identifiable names.

Many can be identified from their behaviour- for example Jewish student societies are targeted at universities, Jewish schools, Jewish businesses, synagogues.

They might be seen observing Jewish holidays or sending good wishes on social media for example.

Hiding your identity entirely to save yourself being attacked or discriminated against isn't as easy as Diane makes out and even if it were her point rests on the premises that people have an option to do so.

I'd go further and say that how can anyone even suggest that it'd be an acceptable solution for people to hide who they are and in that way avoid racism. It's not if it's easy or not, it shouldn't be a thing.

It's 2025, and no one would (rightly so) suggest that gay people should hide who they are and "act hetero". Instead we are, correctly, going towards a society where being gay doesn't bat an eyelid.

DA's comments, and many in this thread too, make me flabbergasted about how ignorant many are. Still. In 2025.

It's 2025, and no one should have to hide who they are to avoid racism. Not even Jews. Because Jews do count.

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 23:44

Oshio · 18/07/2025 22:31

True, but beyind looks, I think as you say Jewish people are much more easy to identify than people make out.

Practicing Jewish people often have signs typically on their clothing.

Many have highly identifiable names.

Many can be identified from their behaviour- for example Jewish student societies are targeted at universities, Jewish schools, Jewish businesses, synagogues.

They might be seen observing Jewish holidays or sending good wishes on social media for example.

Hiding your identity entirely to save yourself being attacked or discriminated against isn't as easy as Diane makes out and even if it were her point rests on the premises that people have an option to do so.

While it is true that some practicing Jewish individuals may display visible markers of their religious or cultural identity such as clothing, participation in communal institutions, or public observance of holidays it is important to exercise caution when making broad generalisations about the ease with which Jewish people can be identified.

Jewish identity is highly heterogeneous, encompassing a wide range of ethnic, religious, linguistic, and cultural backgrounds. Not all Jews are religiously observant, nor do they necessarily wear distinctive attire or possess traditionally Jewish sounding names. Many lead secular lives in which their Jewish identity is not externally visible. As such, the notion that Jewish individuals are generally “easy to identify” risks both oversimplification and the reinforcement of harmful stereotypes that have historically underpinned antisemitic ideologies.

A relevant historical example further complicates this assumption. During the Holocaust, Jews were frequently not easily identifiable to the general public. The imposition of the yellow Star of David by the Nazi regime was a deliberate strategy to forcibly render Jewish identity visible in order to facilitate exclusion, persecution, and ultimately genocide. The need for such a marker underscores the fact that, without it, many Jewish individuals could not be readily distinguished based on appearance or name alone.

This historical precedent illustrates the danger of assuming that identity is, or should be, visually legible.While I acknowledge that in certain contexts or with specific knowledge, one might infer that someone is Jewish based on cues that are subtle or cultural, this is not universally the case. In contemporary British society, unless individuals adopt specific religious dress, use recognisably Jewish names, or publicly express their identity, they are unlikely to be broadly identifiable as Jewish.

In regions of Europe with deeply entrenched histories of antisemitism such as those that experienced pogroms or the Holocaust there may be a greater cultural familiarity with Jewish identity, but this recognition is itself rooted in troubling histories of surveillance and targeting.

More broadly, I agree with the underlying point that concealing one’s identity in order to avoid discrimination is neither a straightforward nor a just solution. Diane’s argument that some Jewish individuals have the capacity to blend in in a way that is not possible for visibly racialised groups such as Black, brown, or even darker-skinned Southern Europeans does raise valid concerns about white privilege. However, to assume that this ability to pass is universally available to Jewish individuals ignores the internal diversity of the Jewish population and underestimates the extent to which antisemitism can operate independently of physical appearance.

A fundamental distinction often drawn between Jewish individuals and members of other racialised or ethnic groups lies in the visibility of identity. For many racial or ethnic minorities such as Black, South Asian, or East Asian individuals physical appearance alone frequently marks them as other within majority-white societies. Their visibility subjects them to forms of discrimination that are often immediate and unavoidable.

By contrast, Jewish identity is not inherently visible. While some Jewish individuals adopt religious clothing or participate in communal life in ways that may make their identity more externally recognisable, many do not. Jewishness, particularly among secular or non-observant Jews, is often invisible to the casual observer. This difference means that, in certain contexts, Jewish individuals may have the capacity to "pass" or withhold their identity as a protective strategy though this option is itself shaped by complex social, cultural, and historical factors, and should not be viewed as a straightforward privilege.

Oshio · 18/07/2025 23:45

neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 23:38

I'd go further and say that how can anyone even suggest that it'd be an acceptable solution for people to hide who they are and in that way avoid racism. It's not if it's easy or not, it shouldn't be a thing.

It's 2025, and no one would (rightly so) suggest that gay people should hide who they are and "act hetero". Instead we are, correctly, going towards a society where being gay doesn't bat an eyelid.

DA's comments, and many in this thread too, make me flabbergasted about how ignorant many are. Still. In 2025.

It's 2025, and no one should have to hide who they are to avoid racism. Not even Jews. Because Jews do count.

Couldn't agree more. I swear to God my husband and I are laying in bed and my son came in excited saying, "look at me". I did and couldn't see anything different. Then he shared with us that he's figured out how to conceal his Kippah UNDER HIS BLOODY HAIR so no one can see it but he can still observe.

British should be bloody ashamed young Jewish people need to live like this, and Abott should be bloody ashamed for egging it on. I am so, so angry she has lost the right to speak about racism entirely as she's proven herself a racist.

Oshio · 18/07/2025 23:49

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 23:44

While it is true that some practicing Jewish individuals may display visible markers of their religious or cultural identity such as clothing, participation in communal institutions, or public observance of holidays it is important to exercise caution when making broad generalisations about the ease with which Jewish people can be identified.

Jewish identity is highly heterogeneous, encompassing a wide range of ethnic, religious, linguistic, and cultural backgrounds. Not all Jews are religiously observant, nor do they necessarily wear distinctive attire or possess traditionally Jewish sounding names. Many lead secular lives in which their Jewish identity is not externally visible. As such, the notion that Jewish individuals are generally “easy to identify” risks both oversimplification and the reinforcement of harmful stereotypes that have historically underpinned antisemitic ideologies.

A relevant historical example further complicates this assumption. During the Holocaust, Jews were frequently not easily identifiable to the general public. The imposition of the yellow Star of David by the Nazi regime was a deliberate strategy to forcibly render Jewish identity visible in order to facilitate exclusion, persecution, and ultimately genocide. The need for such a marker underscores the fact that, without it, many Jewish individuals could not be readily distinguished based on appearance or name alone.

This historical precedent illustrates the danger of assuming that identity is, or should be, visually legible.While I acknowledge that in certain contexts or with specific knowledge, one might infer that someone is Jewish based on cues that are subtle or cultural, this is not universally the case. In contemporary British society, unless individuals adopt specific religious dress, use recognisably Jewish names, or publicly express their identity, they are unlikely to be broadly identifiable as Jewish.

In regions of Europe with deeply entrenched histories of antisemitism such as those that experienced pogroms or the Holocaust there may be a greater cultural familiarity with Jewish identity, but this recognition is itself rooted in troubling histories of surveillance and targeting.

More broadly, I agree with the underlying point that concealing one’s identity in order to avoid discrimination is neither a straightforward nor a just solution. Diane’s argument that some Jewish individuals have the capacity to blend in in a way that is not possible for visibly racialised groups such as Black, brown, or even darker-skinned Southern Europeans does raise valid concerns about white privilege. However, to assume that this ability to pass is universally available to Jewish individuals ignores the internal diversity of the Jewish population and underestimates the extent to which antisemitism can operate independently of physical appearance.

A fundamental distinction often drawn between Jewish individuals and members of other racialised or ethnic groups lies in the visibility of identity. For many racial or ethnic minorities such as Black, South Asian, or East Asian individuals physical appearance alone frequently marks them as other within majority-white societies. Their visibility subjects them to forms of discrimination that are often immediate and unavoidable.

By contrast, Jewish identity is not inherently visible. While some Jewish individuals adopt religious clothing or participate in communal life in ways that may make their identity more externally recognisable, many do not. Jewishness, particularly among secular or non-observant Jews, is often invisible to the casual observer. This difference means that, in certain contexts, Jewish individuals may have the capacity to "pass" or withhold their identity as a protective strategy though this option is itself shaped by complex social, cultural, and historical factors, and should not be viewed as a straightforward privilege.

How curious that despite the ease with which they "blend in" they are still 12x more likely to experience a hate crime than a Muslim. Maybe Diane should run classes on "blending in". I feel genuinely quite sick at this conversation to be honest.

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

HigherWaffle · 18/07/2025 23:59

I have always thought that Diane Abbott was massively racist towards white people. I have listened to her over the decades and she has the most appalling attitude towards white people. When I was at school in the 1970s the black girls would congregate together in the classroom after lunchtime - every day, without fail - and slag off white girls BIG TIME. They would proudly announce how their families had only brought them to the UK for the free education and, after they had finished it, they would be going back to the Caribbean... None of us (white girls) said a thing. We would just sit there, glancing at each other - if we dared - and feeling hugely uncomfortable... This occurred every lunch time. Was that NOT racism?

HelenaWaiting · 19/07/2025 00:00

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

Nor does your experience come close to a Jewish person's experience, a Roma person's experience, a traveller's experience. You may agree with Diane Abbott, but your personal experience isn't actually proof that she is right.

Oshio · 19/07/2025 00:03

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

So like Diane your judging other people's lives based on your own. Diane lives in a place where less than half the population is white. Black people are not a suprise people stare at. It's not 1970.

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:04

HelenaWaiting · 19/07/2025 00:00

Nor does your experience come close to a Jewish person's experience, a Roma person's experience, a traveller's experience. You may agree with Diane Abbott, but your personal experience isn't actually proof that she is right.

But realistically every person experience is going to be different. Both my Irish and Jewish relatives would agree with Diane whereas lots of people disagree. We all have different experiences. Hence, it not always helpful to compare.

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:05

HigherWaffle · 18/07/2025 23:59

I have always thought that Diane Abbott was massively racist towards white people. I have listened to her over the decades and she has the most appalling attitude towards white people. When I was at school in the 1970s the black girls would congregate together in the classroom after lunchtime - every day, without fail - and slag off white girls BIG TIME. They would proudly announce how their families had only brought them to the UK for the free education and, after they had finished it, they would be going back to the Caribbean... None of us (white girls) said a thing. We would just sit there, glancing at each other - if we dared - and feeling hugely uncomfortable... This occurred every lunch time. Was that NOT racism?

This comment doesn't actually make sense.

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:10

Oshio · 19/07/2025 00:03

So like Diane your judging other people's lives based on your own. Diane lives in a place where less than half the population is white. Black people are not a suprise people stare at. It's not 1970.

This is an unhelpful comment. I appreciate that you may be frustrated with Diane Abbott, but there’s no need to minimise the lived experience of Black people in the process. The idea that “Black people aren’t a surprise” anymore or that they “don’t get stared at” dismisses the reality many still face being visibly different in predominantly white spaces does continue to draw attention, whether through stares, surveillance, or unconscious bias.

Even in diverse areas, racism and the experience of being visibly marked as “other” have not simply disappeared with time. Suggesting otherwise undermines the broader point Diane was trying to make about visibility and vulnerability. You can disagree with her without erasing the realities of racialised communities today.

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/07/2025 00:26

She didn't explain it well, what she means is that for people who can't 'pass' as white there is no break from racism therefore it's obviously worse and more frequent

Oshio · 19/07/2025 00:32

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:10

This is an unhelpful comment. I appreciate that you may be frustrated with Diane Abbott, but there’s no need to minimise the lived experience of Black people in the process. The idea that “Black people aren’t a surprise” anymore or that they “don’t get stared at” dismisses the reality many still face being visibly different in predominantly white spaces does continue to draw attention, whether through stares, surveillance, or unconscious bias.

Even in diverse areas, racism and the experience of being visibly marked as “other” have not simply disappeared with time. Suggesting otherwise undermines the broader point Diane was trying to make about visibility and vulnerability. You can disagree with her without erasing the realities of racialised communities today.

Pointing out that Hackney is a diverse area where less than half the population is white isn't “minimising” racism.

The problem here is that Diane Abbott (and some posters defending her) are doing exactly what you’re accusing me of: minimising the racism faced by other groups - like Jews and Travellers - by ranking suffering and deciding whose experience “counts.”

My child has been spat at and has to hide his identity to be safe. He's reported multiple hate crimes and he's not even 22 yet.

We can recognise different forms of racism without pretending one group has the monopoly on pain or visibility and Diane is deeply wrong for attempting that.

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 01:17

Oshio · 19/07/2025 00:32

Pointing out that Hackney is a diverse area where less than half the population is white isn't “minimising” racism.

The problem here is that Diane Abbott (and some posters defending her) are doing exactly what you’re accusing me of: minimising the racism faced by other groups - like Jews and Travellers - by ranking suffering and deciding whose experience “counts.”

My child has been spat at and has to hide his identity to be safe. He's reported multiple hate crimes and he's not even 22 yet.

We can recognise different forms of racism without pretending one group has the monopoly on pain or visibility and Diane is deeply wrong for attempting that.

I think suggesting that Hackney’s diversity somehow means Black people no longer face racism or don’t get stared at is deeply problematic. That’s like saying antisemitism doesn’t exist in areas with large Jewish communities, or that Travellers don’t face discrimination if there are many of them in one place. We know that’s not how racism works.

The presence of a Black population even a significant one doesn’t magically erase structural racism, unconscious bias, or the daily experience of being visibly marked as “other.” It’s entirely possible to live in a diverse area and still face racial profiling, exclusion, or microaggressions. Diversity doesn’t equal safety or acceptance.

I’m really sorry to hear what your child has experienced that kind of hatred is horrifying and absolutely unacceptable. No one should have to hide who they are to feel safe, and it’s important that we name and take seriously the racism and antisemitism that Jewish people face, both historically and today. Your anger and pain are entirely valid.

That said, I don’t think recognising the specific dynamics of anti-Black racism means denying or downplaying the suffering of others. What Diane Abbott was trying to point out however imperfectly was that visibility plays a role in how racism functions. Black people are often immediately marked out because of their skin, in ways that can’t be concealed, even temporarily. That doesn't mean other groups aren’t also targeted or don’t face brutal discrimination, but rather that the mechanisms of that discrimination can differ.

The danger is when this turns into a contest of whose pain “counts more.” I agree with you: racism affects many communities in different, painful, and very real ways. But in challenging one oversimplification, we need to be careful not to fall into another by minimising the lived realities of Black people, as if their experiences of visibility and racism are somehow overstated or irrelevant today. We need to hold space for all of it.

Oshio · 19/07/2025 01:37

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 01:17

I think suggesting that Hackney’s diversity somehow means Black people no longer face racism or don’t get stared at is deeply problematic. That’s like saying antisemitism doesn’t exist in areas with large Jewish communities, or that Travellers don’t face discrimination if there are many of them in one place. We know that’s not how racism works.

The presence of a Black population even a significant one doesn’t magically erase structural racism, unconscious bias, or the daily experience of being visibly marked as “other.” It’s entirely possible to live in a diverse area and still face racial profiling, exclusion, or microaggressions. Diversity doesn’t equal safety or acceptance.

I’m really sorry to hear what your child has experienced that kind of hatred is horrifying and absolutely unacceptable. No one should have to hide who they are to feel safe, and it’s important that we name and take seriously the racism and antisemitism that Jewish people face, both historically and today. Your anger and pain are entirely valid.

That said, I don’t think recognising the specific dynamics of anti-Black racism means denying or downplaying the suffering of others. What Diane Abbott was trying to point out however imperfectly was that visibility plays a role in how racism functions. Black people are often immediately marked out because of their skin, in ways that can’t be concealed, even temporarily. That doesn't mean other groups aren’t also targeted or don’t face brutal discrimination, but rather that the mechanisms of that discrimination can differ.

The danger is when this turns into a contest of whose pain “counts more.” I agree with you: racism affects many communities in different, painful, and very real ways. But in challenging one oversimplification, we need to be careful not to fall into another by minimising the lived realities of Black people, as if their experiences of visibility and racism are somehow overstated or irrelevant today. We need to hold space for all of it.

What on earth are you on about. Why would Black and Asian people be stared at in Hackney? They are not an unusual sight, they are most people. That doesn't suggest in any way, shape or form that they do not experience racism.

Similarly, Jewish people do not get stared at in Golders Green, they are not an unusual sight, they are most people. That does not mean they do not experience racism either.

Please stop trying to turn the tables or put words in people's mouths.

What you're trying to do repeatedly is to justify Diane's disgusting minimisation of the racism experienced by groups. Her exact words were:

“Irish, Jewish and Traveller people ‘undoubtedly experience prejudice,’ which is ‘similar to racism.’ … ‘many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice - but they are not all their lives subject to racism.’”

These justifications are clearly not accurate. Jewish people measurably experience more hate crimes than Black people do. That's data, not opinion. So those targeting them, clearly have no issue seeking them out.

I have a friend with a red haired child. He doesn't need to wear a hat to hide his hair for fear of being attacked by people who just hate red heads. I assure you when someone shouted "Jew C*nt" at my child on a London bus it wasn't "similar to racism", it was racism.

What an utterly ridiculous comment Abott made and how ludicrous to hear people tripping over themselves to excuse it as she doubles down.

So she's wrong, you're wrong and please stop trying to accuse others of that which you yourself are doing. You need to give your head a huge wobble.

Colinfromaccounts · 19/07/2025 01:49

I think the level of racism she has experienced as a black woman, and the first black female MP at that, shouldn’t be underestimated. But unfortunately she was somewhat dim to bring this up again.

MrsCornelius · 19/07/2025 03:25

💯 agree.
Seems a lot of people have never read her letter 🙄

MrsCornelius · 19/07/2025 03:30

The issue for me is that DA said Jews do not experience racism, and implicitly equated the holocaust with bullying of redheads.
No need for a long analysis. What she said is clearly not ok.

AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott
Samiloff · 19/07/2025 03:58

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

So you agree with her likening antisemitism to prejudice against redheads. Wow.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 05:44

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/07/2025 00:26

She didn't explain it well, what she means is that for people who can't 'pass' as white there is no break from racism therefore it's obviously worse and more frequent

This is nonsense though. Just because someone may be always visible doesn't mean they are constantly the subject of racism.

Reugny · 19/07/2025 06:08

@MrsCornelius Or the original article which it was in reply to.

This original article that pointed out racism in British society is complex.

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 07:28

Oshio · 18/07/2025 23:45

Couldn't agree more. I swear to God my husband and I are laying in bed and my son came in excited saying, "look at me". I did and couldn't see anything different. Then he shared with us that he's figured out how to conceal his Kippah UNDER HIS BLOODY HAIR so no one can see it but he can still observe.

British should be bloody ashamed young Jewish people need to live like this, and Abott should be bloody ashamed for egging it on. I am so, so angry she has lost the right to speak about racism entirely as she's proven herself a racist.

That brought a tear to my eye x

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 07:36

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:10

This is an unhelpful comment. I appreciate that you may be frustrated with Diane Abbott, but there’s no need to minimise the lived experience of Black people in the process. The idea that “Black people aren’t a surprise” anymore or that they “don’t get stared at” dismisses the reality many still face being visibly different in predominantly white spaces does continue to draw attention, whether through stares, surveillance, or unconscious bias.

Even in diverse areas, racism and the experience of being visibly marked as “other” have not simply disappeared with time. Suggesting otherwise undermines the broader point Diane was trying to make about visibility and vulnerability. You can disagree with her without erasing the realities of racialised communities today.

Oshio is not minimising the experience or erasing the realities of black people. In fact she is addressing Diane's point on Diane's terms. If 'visibility' is the key factor then it stands to reason that a black person won't stand out in an area where they are not a small minority. You are muddling up different contexts which absolutely have changed over time. Especially in London.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 07:41

Oshio · 18/07/2025 23:49

How curious that despite the ease with which they "blend in" they are still 12x more likely to experience a hate crime than a Muslim. Maybe Diane should run classes on "blending in". I feel genuinely quite sick at this conversation to be honest.

I agree. I'm so sorry your son is even having to think about hiding his identity. He should be growing up both comfortable with it and proud. The lack of empathy for Jewish people around these discussions is stark and depressing.