AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

Presumably it was halal which some eaters of kosher food will accept. Again, you are arguing with someone's food choices. Do you usually not accept what a person says they will or will not eat, or is it just because the person in question is Jewish?

@Oshio You’re absolutely spot on.

Sadly, it currently seems that every Jewish person - wherever they live or however tenuous their personal connection is with political/military decisions being made in Israel - seems to be fair game for abuse and confrontation. The baying mobs outside London synagogues for example, have been appalling and quite terrifying.

Anyone can decide to keep kosher or not, and it's not for me to tell them what to do. Where I can give my factual opinion is whether something is objectively kosher.

Eating chicken in a Tunisian restaurant, even if it's halal, is not consistent with the claim that you're keeping kosher. Unless the chicken was slaughtered by a qualified shochet, then salted in the required manner, then cooked by a Jew in a kosher pot, that chicken isn't kosher. That's all I'm saying.

Luckily, more arrests for hate crimes will be made, particularly in light of PAG now being a proscribed terrorist group. Great result that was. Well done Yvette Cooper. 👏

By percentage of interactions with law enforcement, black people in USA are far less likely to be killed by police officers than white people. That's just a fact.

. I believe that most people are aware that police in America kill a number a unarmed black people each year. Does this sort of thing happen to Jewish people?

The number of people killed or injured by Jewish people is fairly low in both the US and the UK, and by no coincidence the number of police shooting of unarmed Jews is small. Similarly with Hindus and Chinese.

I honestly think I treat people consistently and respectfully and in my mind I resist prejudice and I argue against the prejudice I meet. in my area, racism towards travellers is still broadly seen as acceptable and many people casually refer to those communities as p- word and I do call it out. I would be horrified to learn that anyone found me treating them with prejudice or discriminating against them (on any grounds other than a track record of behaving like a knob or worse).

i think where my view is formed is in knowing several people, and being aware of several well-known people without knowing that they are Jewish or of Traveller heritage. Oliver Letwin is one, because someone referred to him as a pig a number of years ago and I had had no idea that he was Jewish. The story was bigger than a simple insult because of the insult chosen, but I hadn’t been aware of it and so hadn’t been aware that it was worse than the pig jokes which were made about David Cameron when a certain news story broke. I had a French boyfriend once and asked him if it was usual in France to be circumcised; I hadn’t known he was of Jewish origin, but it didn’t make any difference to my feelings or our relationship.

I apologise for my lack of awareness and my continuing lack of understanding.

I initially didn't bother responding to this as it seemed like pointless grilling. As I said, I am not Jewish, my son is. I used the wrong word, because I am not Jewish.

What I meant was, he follows the rules of not eating meat and dairy within a few hours of one another.

He isn't actually kosher because he vant practically be. The rest of the family are not Jewish, and he shares a kitchen at university halls. Oh, and there's absolutely no kosher food options available to him at university.

The point is that due to religious observation he does NOT eat dairy if he's had meat. Ever!!!!

I have not reviewed all the comments in this discussion, but I concur with Diane Abbott’s perspective that racism and prejudice manifest in diverse forms. This is not a contest of oppression but rather an acknowledgment that different groups encounter distinct types of discrimination. For instance, individuals who are Black and Brown possess differing phenotypic traits, while Irish individuals are generally perceived as white, and some Jewish individuals may be white-passing. Furthermore, even within Black and Brown communities, the nature of racial experiences diverges significantly. Drawing direct comparisons between the Jewish experience and the Black experience may be unproductive.

I have been mulling this thread over since yesterday and trying to work out what pisses me off about Diane Abbott. Because I can see the point of what she is saying - that discrimination about things you cant disguise or hide impacts in a different way.

And as PPs have commented on - certain groups of people, specifically BAME groups - face far more impact from the impact of the discrimination.

Unfortunately when I listen to DA I get the sense that she is dismissive or downplaying of difficulties in communities other than hers. I am not sure that is always what she is saying, but if she doesnt mean it, she is a poor communicator.

As I said yesterday, I lost respect for her when she was the education secretary and would not answer questions about why she sent her son to a public school. Not even annoyed at her for doing that - but just refusing to discuss it was arrogant and entitled.

Regarding the Traveller community, I do not believe that people hold greater racist or prejudiced attitudes toward Travellers compared to other ethnic groups. Instead, it seems that society perceives it as more socially acceptable to mistreat Travellers, which perpetuates their poor treatment.

She's also said racially divisive things during her time in Parliament. The woman has always been a loose cannon.

When you say a person of colour? Do you mean black or referring to being a Middle Eastern Jew?

Neither.

I don't know why you're having a go at me. I wasn't the one doing the grilling. I was defending you. I'm sorry if that offended you.

Sorry I was talking to the person grilling me! I can see it might have looked otherwise, my bad

I think most people will concede that the Holocaust was pretty fucking structural, institutional and systemic. Such nonsense being written about which groups can hide their ethnicity - if the state wants to persecute you, they'll make damn sure you can't hide.

Yes agree

Out curiosity - what do mean being a jew of colour?

She’s correct that a person of colour cannot hide their ethnicity, but forgets that a lot of Jewish people aren’t white.

So while some may not specifically just face racism due to being Jewish, but due to being non-white. They may also hear more antisemitism because people don’t realise they are Jewish. My husband is white skinned, blue eyed and blonde, he’s Jewish, he did have a Jewish surname but as its also a fairly common scandi name it isn’t obvious. He himself hasn’t experienced direct antisemitism due to his appearance, however he has heard a lot if antisemitism due to people not realising he is Jewish. He is a very small minority who is able to fly under the radar as he doesn’t meet a racists view of wjat a Jewish person looks like.

I think Jewish people confuse. Antisemitism sometimes differs in that Jews can be perceived as both "privileged" and "other" simultaneously, and in some contexts, white-passing Jews may not face the same immediate forms of exclusion that visibly racialised groups do. However, historically In many societies, antisemitism has had both structural and systemic components, such as:

• Historical legal discrimination: Jews were excluded from owning land, entering certain professions, or accessing education in many countries.
• Social and institutional exclusion: Jewish communities have been scapegoated, segregated, and expelled, with long-standing myths and stereotypes shaping public policy and opinion.
• State-sponsored violence: Pogroms, the Holocaust, and other acts of mass violence were facilitated by institutions, laws, and governments.
• Cultural narratives and conspiracy theories: Persistent antisemitic tropes—like claims of Jewish control over finance, media, or global affairs—still influence political rhetoric and public discourse.
• Disparities in safety and representation: Jewish schools, synagogues, and community centres often require high levels of security due to persistent threats of violence.

I agree with Diane Abbott.

I lived in a southern European country where many of the indigenous population has bronzed white skin and blue and green eyes are relatively rare. As a paler white person born around 800km. to the north, in a neighbouring country with the same most practised religion and many similar customs, cultural practices, often my skin, hair and eye colour were the ONLY thing people talked about, and before saying hello I was frequently met with, « where on earth are you from? » and all it could make me think was how it might possibly be for people who genuinely look different.

I believe people often underestimate the extent to which appearance shapes how others perceive and treat you. For instance, I am of mixed heritage, but most people cannot easily identify the specific ethnic backgrounds I am mixed with. While I am not Jewish, I do have Jewish ancestry; however, I have never experienced direct antisemitism, likely because I do not have identifiable markers typically associated with Jewish identity—such as a recognisably Jewish surname or traditional clothing. In contrast, I have faced prejudice based on my appearance, specifically for looking mixed race. That aspect of my identity is visible and cannot be concealed. It is clear from my appearance that I do not look fully European or traditionally English.

I live in Brixton in London and something like 40% of the population are not white. In Diane Abbots constituency it's more like 50%

True, but beyind looks, I think as you say Jewish people are much more easy to identify than people make out.

Practicing Jewish people often have signs typically on their clothing.

Many have highly identifiable names.

Many can be identified from their behaviour- for example Jewish student societies are targeted at universities, Jewish schools, Jewish businesses, synagogues.

They might be seen observing Jewish holidays or sending good wishes on social media for example.

Hiding your identity entirely to save yourself being attacked or discriminated against isn't as easy as Diane makes out and even if it were her point rests on the premises that people have an option to do so.