AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

Are you seriously trying to pretend that anyone on this thread has said anti-semitism or other racism doesn’t exist?

No one has said that.

It’s possible to see the black community as the most targeted and disenfranchised and as the victims of structural, institutional and systemic racism AND know that racism toward Jews, Muslims, Asians exists as well. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Where have I said that?

I’m asking if reading posts from Jewish posters makes you adjust your view on Diane Abbott being right as you poster earlier.

I’m wondering how you and Abbott know what the experience is for a Jewish person.

I’m asking if reading posts from Jewish posters makes you adjust your view on Diane Abbott being right as you poster earlier.

Are you confusing me with a different poster? Where did I post that?

@nomasI do understand what systemic means. If a culture is in place where raped girls get arrested, instead of protected, when found abused, naked and drunk in the company of men decades older than them, when police and social services and councils consistently criminalise these girls and their families instead of the perpetrators; I would say that is systemic.

Yanbu. Clearly a black person cannot hide their ethnicity in a job interview, while some other marginalised ethnicities can.

Here @nomas

On reading @Longingdreamerexperience do you agree with Abbott?

Whay are you setting up a hierarchy and identifying the criteria that most relate to one community? How many black churches routinely have security guards? Very few. Yet most synagogues do and have done for years. Racism impacts in different ways.

Latest figures for religious hate crime show the Jewish community by far the worst affected. A rate of 121 hate crimes per 10k population. Next most affected group 'other' with 14 and Muslim with 10.

If you go to racially aggravated hate crime the rate is 41 per 10k for black, followed by 24 for asian. Jews are not identified as an ethnic group so don't show up.

https://www.gov.uk/gwww.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024

I agree there is systemic racism and misogyny within the police. But your post was saying the rapists had systemic power (that the police were in their pockets). This patently untrue. Vile and racist as the rapists were, they do not have systemic power, which refers to the collective structures and practices system of the UK.

I don't agree that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people don't experience racism.

But I do believe that black people are victims of structural and systemic racism.

I'm answering the OP, who argued that "people visibly of a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious."

All acts of racism are deplorable. I'm Asian and Asians experienced the most last year (31.3% of victims of racially or religiously aggravated hate crime were Asian). It doesn't change my view that that black people are victims of structural and systemic racism, which my community isn't.

Persecution is a pretty heavy thing to bear. And you can see it in posts on here even.

@nomassystemic just means systemic. It can mean any system. What happened in all those northern towns against those girls was systemic. They weren’t one-off rapes. There was systemic abuse, minimising and silencing of those girls.

Heal's third report in 2006 said that the continuing situation involved "systematic physical and sexual violence against young women", including trafficking to other towns.[153] The report recommended: "More emphasis should be placed on tackling the abusers, rather than the abused."[154] Heal sent her 2006 report to the Rotherham Drugs Partnership,[155] the district commander, and the chief superintendents.[156][46] Heal left the South Yorkshire Police in March 2007. In 2015, her 2003 and 2006 reports were released by South Yorkshire Police following a Freedom of Information Act request.[157][149][158]

Published in February 2015, the Casey Report concluded that Rotherham Council was "not fit for purpose".[180] Casey identified a culture of "bullying, sexism ... and misplaced 'political correctness'", along with a history of covering up information and silencing whistleblowers. The child sexual exploitation team was poorly directed, had excessive case loads, and did not share information.[181] The council had a history of failing to deal with issues around race:[182] Pakistani-heritage councillors were left to deal with all issues pertaining to that community, which left them able to exert disproportionate influence, while white councillors ignored their responsibilities.[183]

The Black community are not the most targeted. Jewish people are the most disproportionately targeted. Abbott encourages this distorted picture.

Brilliant post

I think what is being spoken about is Jewish people being the most religiously targeted group

That doesn't take into account structural, institutional and systemic racism

Both are terrible both cause suffering and pain

But it is different that is the point being made

No, I don't. But the vast majority of them are. A black Jewish person will receive more prejudice for their skin colour than their religion.

Can you provide any formal statistical data that supports this. I am not aware of any. Recently it has been shown that black mothers receive worse maternity care in the NHS. I believe that most people are aware that police in America kill a number a unarmed black people each year. Does this sort of thing happen to Jewish people?

No the vast majority of Jews are not white. Its not straightforward. Jews are an ethno religious group for a start but most American Jews identify as white but how that information is gathered is shaped by the categories on census questions. The majority of Jews in Israel are certainly not white, being more likely to be Middle Eastern North African, Indian, Ethiopian etc

I am aware of this situation. In Rome, I was forced to cross the road and walk on the opposite side of the Synagogue by an armed man. He was private security and not the police. My crime....being brown...he didn't do this to any of the white tourists.

Are you a Jewish black person?

As a Jewish person of colour, my experience is that I have encountered more racism for being Jewish than being a person of colour. I'm not religious but ethnically Jewish, which btw, year 2025, is something many still fail to understand the concept of.

My name is a giveaway, btw. I don't even have to meet someone in person to encounter racism.

At work, we are a group of Jews supporting each other more than ever due to an increase in antisemitism even in the workplace. That's reality, but David Baddiel is right - "Jews don't count".

Which is an interesting point in itself, as according to NHS data taken in March 2024, almost half of the doctors and consultants (47.5%) and more than a third of nurses, midwives, and health visitors (33.6%) are from a Black or Minority Ethnic (BME) background.
It begs the question then, why and who is responsible for black mothers receiving worse maternity care?

Racism isn’t only committed by white people against people of colour. Sadly, there’s inherent bias, suspicion and distrust across the board by all races against other races. Diana Abbott makes these statements because she is very conscious of and wants to retain her appeal to the majority ethnicity of her constituents.

Playing to the gallery used to be the old term for it.

Well I think this just about reflects the ignorance of this thread and Abbot.

I feel a bit like people are not comprehending this.

Muslims and Jews or travellers should not need to take steps to hide their identity to get a job or ride a bis safelt, nor need to state their political views to be accepted.

Jewish people need security at their schools and synagogues. I think mosques have needed similar.

Jews all over the country have to experience discrimination in workplaces, key organisations such as their unions where they are supposed to find support. I assume Muslims experience the same.

My son was entirely ostracised at university because he refused to go along with antisemitism. He was told to leave his student union if he complained about antisemitic emails. There is absolutely no way he could attend certain classes, such as international relations because he would be required to accept the antisemitic world view that's taken to be the only norm.

Jewish people are having their business boycotted, they're getting book signings cancelled, their concerts cancelled.

If you don't think the racism to Jews, Muslims amd other groups is systemic, structural and institutional then your eyes are shut.

I guarantee you if a Black university student wrote to their student union complaining about anti black racism in emails from the official account, they would 100% NOT be invited to leave the union if they didn't like it.