AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

@Pomegranatecarnagedo you think this poster is crazy for questioning it?

I'm sorry you experienced that at 12 - no one should ever have to carry that, and it’s absolutely valid to speak from that place. But personal trauma and systemic racism aren’t the same thing. The former is real and devastating. The latter is about how power operates across entire institutions and histories.

Again, no one here has denied that those men held racialised, misogynistic views - that’s been acknowledged multiple times. What’s being questioned is the attempt to redefine systemic racism based on one horrific context. That doesn’t minimise what happened - it’s about keeping the definition of systemic racism rooted in structural reality, not just personal horror.

Agreeing to disagree is fine — but let’s be clear on what we’re actually disagreeing about. Not the pain. Not the wrongness of the abuse. But how we define systems of power.

This, all day long. People who talk about systemic racism and only in one direction vs inter-personal racism are often trying to excuse group failure imo.

I don’t need to talk about all that. Don’t mistake my bluntness here for lack of awareness or intelligence. I believe in intersectionality but sometimes it can be an evasive tactic for uncomfortable facts.

White girls were systemically abused and raped across the U.K. for decades by South Asian men who used them because raping girls from their own community was frowned upon. The ‘men’ (I wish we’d stipulate the demographics of men in VAWG) cannot be deported back to their country of origin (Pakistan) as even Pakistan have said they’d essentially be shamed out of their community or killed as it’s so shameful.

Because of the perpetrators race this was covered up by many of our institutions and has been admitted in many Gov reports now.

I’d like to get back to the main topic but the gaslighting around this subject / ignorance of obvious pattern recognition does the survivors a real disservice.

Honestly, the way you're dragging those girls’ trauma into this like a shield to deflect reality is disgusting. If you actually cared, you’d stop using their suffering as a blunt instrument to score points and start trying to understand the actual dynamics of racism and sexism.

But clearly, nuance is too much to ask when all you want is to scream ‘white victimhood!’ and shut down anyone who challenges you. Pathetic.

No, you don’t agree that those racist views are historic and deeply rooted in some peoples beliefs systems - but they are, there is a lot of evidence that they are. The fact that it did affect institutions to the point where the police and MPs didn’t believe it and that half of society didn’t believe it and that the families of those men all defended it because ‘white girls’ and that you are here still suggesting it isn’t the same thing only backs my beliefs.

I am not comparing it to other forms of racism, I don’t believe that this situation takes away from the other horrific things that have happened and still happen every single day. But I am going to acknowledge that it is there.

It doesn’t mean that other forms of racism are suddenly lessened.

Anyway, I didn’t want to discuss Rotherham, I came here to say what I said in the beginning. Now it’s tomorrow and I am going to bed. No hard feelings and goodnight.

ETA. I apologise for helping to derail the thread

No one’s disputing the horrific abuse those girls endured or the institutional failures behind it. If anything, pretending otherwise would be willful ignorance.

But if complexity feels like ‘gaslighting’ to you, maybe it’s not the conversation that’s broken — maybe it’s the willingness to accept nuance.

Intersectionality isn’t a dodge; it’s the only way to make sense of how different oppressions operate simultaneously.

Wanting to ‘get back to the main topic’ is fair — but dismissing uncomfortable truths about systemic racism just because they don’t fit your narrative isn’t helpful. Those survivors deserve more than selective outrage.

Acknowledging historic racist views is important - but confusing individual horror with systemic racism isn’t the same, and that difference matters.

I agree with what you say, but find it hard to believe that Pakistan would shame the perpetrators. This is a country who until very recently when introducing a new law, allowed the sexual exploitation of children by allowing men to marry children. The behaviour of these men in Rotherham was not only racist but also sexist - having absolutely no respect for women at all.

Yes, the gaslighting really is disgusting; good job we aren't easily scared away from standing by our points. I don't care for bullies and arrogant ones, at that. There's some bad faith posting going on here.

Blaming ‘systemic racism talk’ for group failure is just a convenient way to dodge the hard truths nobody wants to face.

The girls were chosen because of their race. The idiot, who is the subject of this thread, doesn't appreciate the same nuance that her protegees call for.

The term “doesn’t fit my narrative” is strange. It’s not a narrative, it’s a pattern of behaviour by a certain demographic. That’s data, not a narrative.

The fact you think any presentation of racism that doesn’t affect the minority you deem the most worthy is being used as a shield, says a lot about your unwillingness to see anything past your own ideological view.

The ‘arrogant bully’ card always gets played by the ones who can’t handle facts. If telling truth is bullying, then I’m guilty - but at least I’m not hiding behind excuses 😚

Ah, ‘data’ - the favourite word when convenient facts suit you, but inconvenient truths become ‘narratives.’

Patterns don’t need your permission to exist, and recognising systemic racism isn’t about ‘worthiness’ - it’s about reality. Maybe try stepping outside your ideological bubble sometime.

My apologies, I’ve read so many human rights clauses by these monsters on why they can’t be deported but can’t find where I read that. I’ll keep looking and update if I find the article.

It’s why people may feel uncomfortable but I truly believe VAWG stats need demographics of the men involved and who their victims are. Although the data we do have (and it’s patchy) doesn’t paint the picture some people on this thread would like…

It’s awful and there is no way you should have to hide who are to protect yourself and your family.
But isn’t that Abbott’s point - some people can hide who they are but others can’t even to protect themselves. She is not saying it is a privilege nor that it is easy or that you ought to.
I understand that there is absolutely an awful feeling of “how do I introduce something that is the very essence of me but could result in a hostile and racist reaction”.

I agree she definitely said it in a clumsy way.
Black people are black all the time.
BUT some Jewish people look Jewish all the time. Some Muslim people look Muslim all the time. Some people of colour are mistaken for the wrong religion and are subjected to racism, lynched.
The mistake she made was implying it was unique to black people when she was talking of her own lived experience.

I’m not in a bubble. I see data, data you can draw obvious conclusions from. If we were more data driven as a society maybe we could stop all the word salad and take action to sort things. But my fear is, a lot of what you’re preaching has no tangible action because it’s feelings based.

If you have any opposing data you’d like to bring to the front then by all means; I’d love to see it and what we can do as a society to adjust it.

I'm not Jewish, I have a Jewish grandparent and many of his family died in the Holocaust. My son converted when he was 20.

He experienced 4 hate crimes in 18 months, including being spaton by school kids, and he's had to stop wearing his kippah for his personal safety.

He can't mention that he's Jewish a lot of the time, as its likely he'll face hate in public settings.

For example we were eating in a Tunisian restaurant and he'd had some chicken, the waitress was trying to give him baclava which he couldn't eat because he keeps kosher. She kept pushing and pushinso and he was too scared to say he was kosher in a busy restaurant, so the poor boy had to put it in his mouth and then spit it out when she wasn't looking.

He's had Jewish friends physically attacked at uni. When he complained to the student union about antisemitic enails they were sending out, he was invited to leave the student union. There's many courses that are a complete no-go for him.

The ignorance here is unbelievable.

Ignorance or something else? From what I've read on here, I'm leaning towards the latter.

Ahh brilliant! I appreciate your openness to data - that’s where productive conversations start. Systemic racism is documented extensively, not just in ‘feelings’ but in concrete disparities across education, criminal justice, healthcare, and employment.

For example, studies show that Black and minority ethnic candidates are significantly less likely to be called for job interviews with identical CVs, and that police stop-and-search disproportionately targets people of colour. These aren’t just anecdotes - they are backed by official stats and academic research.

Of course, data alone won’t fix these issues - that requires commitment to systemic change, policy reforms, and addressing unconscious bias.

Recognising ‘feelings’ means acknowledging lived realities that data might not fully capture, but both evidence and empathy are essential to progress.

White girls were systemically abused and raped across the U.K. for decades by South Asian men who used them because raping girls from their own community was frowned upon

Why would you refer to them as South Asian men? Why lump all brown men in as one homogenous group? An entire subcontinent. On a thread about racism. Geez.

Because it says that in many different news articles and gov reports?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65174096

Maybe because they were South Asian? Just a thought.

I agree with her completely and I am a mixed race woman who looks white. I see nothing at all wrong in what she said and am really shocked at the suspension.