AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

So you won’t admit that those men held racist views? They chose white girls for a reason - due to the colour of their skin. Due to deep rooted views on white girls. That’s racism.

Why are we comparing levels of racism? We don’t have to. We can accept that all prejudice is wrong on all levels and we need to do everything to stamp all of it out. And that includes men seeing white girls as rape targets due to the colour of their skin.

So we've not only got antisemitism being minimised but the targetted rape of white girls - all in the name of battling to see who is oppressed the most. Yuck. I'm not engaging with certain posters, any further.

It's not all it's cracked up to be, being a Jew who doesn't look 'obviously Jewish'. There's always a constant balancing act between revealing my real self and keeping my family safe, especially now. It feels similar to 'coming out' as gay - if you don't, it erases an important part of you, if you do it can lay you open to cruelty and sadly reveal that friendly neighbours, acquaintances, work colleagues etc only wanted to befriend a false, partial version of you.

I know lots of people don't get it. Thank you sincerely to those on this thread that do seem to. Maybe it's because others really do see it like a costume I can take on and off? Eg when expressing concerns to friends about my young child possibly encountering antisemitism at school I was given the well meaning suggestion that we "just don't have to tell anyone we're Jewish". Which would effectively be asking a five year old to tell a lie I doubt an adult could sustain. What are you doing for christmas? (Going to Limmud!) Why did you get presents at a different time? (We celebrate Hanukkah actually!) You're out of school on a weekday in September where did you go? (To synagogue for Rosh Hashana with my family!) It's impossible. But that is what a dear old friend genuinely suggested before I pointed out the obvious flaws.

They would never have suggested that eg if I had a same sex partner I should just never hold hands with them or put up wedding pictures on Facebook in case I invited homophobia on myself. That line of thinking has rightly died a death in this country. Gone are the days where you were expected not to 'do what you liked in the house but not do it in the street and frighten the horses'. We have Pride now. The same is not really true if you're Jewish.

We rightly don't compare racism and homophobia. (Hey, which one is worse?! What if you're affected by both, which stings more, what a pointless question?) I'd bloody love it if antisemitism was actually taken seriously by the left in this country, as seriously as homophobia. Being Jewish is not a costume, it is not comparable to having red hair and there is a deep, deep history of atrocities against our people to show that. Travellers are being put into a very similar position by this harmful and polarising rhetoric. It needs to stop

You're entitled to disagree - but mistaking racial slurs for systemic racism is like confusing a punchline with the entire plot.

Just because race was mentioned doesn’t mean power structures were reversed.

Oh my Lord in heaven.

No one’s denying those men held racialised, misogynistic views. Choosing victims based on race is vile—and yes, that's racism. But acknowledging that doesn't erase the reality that racism isn’t just about individual attitudes - it’s about structures, history, and power.

So yes, let’s condemn all prejudice. But pretending all forms of racism are equal flattens context and erases impact. A slur, a hate crime, and generations of systemic oppression aren’t all playing on the same field. Let’s not pretend they are.

I had a tunisian friend who was like “yeah we were slavers”. She definitely didn’t approve but she was pretty bewildered about people not noticing the arab slave trade.

No one has said all forms of racism are equal, but another poster tried to suggest that those rapes weren’t based upon racism and they were. Accepting that doesn’t mean that suddenly other forms of racism don’t matter. The fact that so many people didn’t accept that is was racism originally is why it was allowed to con tie for so damned long.

Accepting that doesn’t take away how anyone else has suffered and still suffers. It doesn’t work like that.

Ph and by the way, those rapes happens due to historical beliefs and power.

Nothing about this conversation has minimised antisemitism or the abuse of white girls. What has been resisted is the impulse to weaponise those tragedies to shut down discussions about structural racism.

If complexity feels like a competition to you, that says more about your lens than anyone else's intent. Bowing out is your right - but don’t pretend it’s a moral high ground when it’s just an exit from nuance.

Individual prejudice, even when racialised, isn't the same as structural oppression.

I don't think anyone is saying those rapists weren't racist. Racism against white people.

And isn't this the heart of the issue, structural racism, like the Bristol Bus company banning black employees in the 1960's, or structural racism in institutions like education and the police are a very different beast to a group of immigrant descent or recent immigrant Pakistani men in the UK.

If we are serious about 'stamping it out' you have to take a different approach to each form of racism surely?

The suffering of those girls is not up for debate - and no one here has denied the racialised views behind the abuse. But acknowledging that doesn’t rewrite what systemic racism means. One horrific case doesn’t flip centuries of social structure. That’s not how oppression works - and no amount of misquoting people changes that.

Well said @SnacksAndChaosThanks

YABU. Abbott is (as always) talking out of her ar*e.

Much like non-Black people have no right to discuss her experience, she has no right to discuss the experience of other groups to which she doesn't belong, it's extremely offensive for her to do that, and to put a hierarchy into it, and then be so blind to it to deny it.

The poster is using the lazy sociological debate about power. I mean ripping down photos of hostages and being raped and massacred because of one's race, isn't on the same level as being black. Antisemism is alive and kicking.

Forgive me but you’re making it sound like it’s okay for white girls to be punished by a minority male group because of systemic racism against other groups by the whites? If you’re talking about power - these girls had no power and in fighting it still don’t have power due to race dynamics.

I would say the sheer amount of victims and their shared characteristics, the way it’s across the U.K. in multiple areas - would now make it systemic.

👏 👏

If you read my original message about Rotherham, it was responding to someone who said it wasn’t racist. By denying its racist is a massive issue. I wasn’t the one who brought it up and I don’t agree that it should be used as some form of trump card against other racism.

To be honest, I have no idea how to end racism. But I don’t believe that saying ‘well that form of racism isn’t as important because XYZ’ is the answer, and there is a bit of dismissing and minimising happening here. Accepting that Rotherham was a huge issue that stemmed from racism doesn’t take away from other forms of racism.

She’s right-so right it’s crazy that anyone is questioning it. I have Jewish acquaintances that no one would know were Jewish. You can’t hide being black or Asian (nor should you have to).

Yeah I don’t buy this Indian and chinese households have the highest earning households in the UK, the poorest earning are pakistani. Where does this indicate systemic racism.

And so many people denying that it was racism meant that the situation with the grooming was allowed to flourish and exist for so long. It went on for many many years. The authorities and the police were instructed to tread carefully so in effect turned a blind eye. Only recently has Starmer acknowledged what went on and that it was deserving of a major enquiry. While people were arguing and bickering about what constituted as racism, more young girls were raped and abused in plain sight. Absolute travesty that it was allowed to continue for so long.

Let me be crystal clear: nothing I’ve said suggests that the abuse of those girls was acceptable - and suggesting otherwise is a gross misrepresentation. What happened was horrific, and the victims deserved protection, justice, and dignity. Full stop.

But recognising that a group of men held racialised, misogynistic views and carried out coordinated abuse does not mean there’s now a system of racism against white people. Systemic racism isn’t just about patterns - it’s about where power lies across institutions over time. These girls were failed by systems, yes - but not because those systems were built to oppress white people.

If you want to talk about institutional neglect, misogyny, classism, and the racialisation of victims, I’m right there with you. But let’s not twist the definition of systemic racism to score rhetorical points. That helps no one - least of all the survivors.

The Rotheram girls have been hidden away and told to shut up, enough. They are very relevant when somebody is trying to say that white females are not subject to sexism AND racism.

Many Jews are also unable to disguise the fact that they’re Jewish. Nor should they have to….

Except they have denied it was racism which is why I spoke up in the first place. Misquoting me won’t get me to change my mind either. You don’t think their views come from systemic racism - I would beg to differ. There are views on white women and girls held in some countries that back up a lot of what those men said. Just because this was the only case of rapes doesn’t mean it’s the only case of those views, because I’ve experienced it myself, when I was 12.

But we can agree to disagree.

LOL! Ah yes - because if a few ethnic groups are earning more, that must mean racism has clocked out for the day. How convenient!

By that logic, if Oprah’s rich, anti-Black racism must be over too, right? Or maybe racism only counts when it aligns neatly with a bar graph.

Systemic racism isn’t disproven by selective stats - especially when those stats ignore history, immigration policy, institutional bias, and structural inequality. But hey, if a high income’s all it takes to dismantle oppression, let’s give racism a raise and call it a day. Hurrah.