To complain to HR… about HR?

[ApricotFlan]

Sorry, this might be a bit of a long one!

For a while now, the buzz at work has been that my head of department, Angela, was on borrowed time. Yesterday it was confirmed the rumours were true. Angela had been into her boss’s office and then went out seemingly for lunch, but never came back. Our team was then called into the boardroom and told that Angela had been made redundant, effective immediately.

Because there had already been gossip, Angela’s boss - now OUR boss until further notice - decided it was better that any speculation happened away from the office. He gave my line manager his corporate card and told him to take us all to the pub, so that any discussions would happen there.

This morning I and two of my colleagues arrived at around 9.15. We have a flexible start and end time, with the option to do anything from 8 - 4 to 10 - 6, and the rest of the team had arrived early. My colleague Louise told me that the Head of UK HR had pulled them all in and given them a dressing down for going to the pub, saying it looked like we were “celebrating”, and that Angela has most definitely NOT been made redundant and was in a process. Louise and the others had naturally told her that we’d simply done as we’d been told, and that it was our boss who’d said Angela had been made redundant. When Louise asked why my colleagues and I weren’t being included in the meeting, Head of HR had admitted she’d forgotten about us 🙄

Anyway, Head of HR appears and asks me and my two colleagues to come to the boardroom. I’m expecting an apology for forgetting us and a reiteration of the redundancy process, seeing as she now knows a) we were following orders and b) that it was our boss who’d told us about the redundancy.

No. We got the exact same spiel about how bad it looked that we’d gone to the pub, couldn’t we see that it looked like we were celebrating - even a mawkish “Think how poor Angela would feel!” We were told again that she had absolutely NOT been made redundant and was in a process.

I said, “Sorry, I’m confused - Louise said she explained we were TOLD to go to the pub, and that Angela had been made redundant.” Head of HR got flustered saying “Well yes; she did, she did.” I then asked why we were there if she knew all this. She got huffy and said again that the point was that Angela had NOT been made redundant and that this should not be said in the office. I repeated that no one had said this other than management.

Later on in the day, Head of HR had said to Louise, “I didn’t offend you all earlier, did I?” Louise, to her credit, had said that yes, frankly she did, and that the issue had actually been with our boss.

I am torn on what to do. If any other manager had treated me like this and been so inept, I would be straight on to HR. But it IS HR who have made the almighty fuck-up. I cannot comprehend how the supposed head of the UK function would a) haul the team in without even speaking to their boss, b) forget three members of said team even exist and c) STILL give the team members they forgot the original lecture, when their mistake had already been corrected! The incompetence is breathtaking.

Despite it being the UK Head of HR at fault, I do have options. One would be to complain to my boss and get him to take it up with them. The other is to go to the Global Head of HR. It’s a big move, but I just cannot fathom how this all went so badly wrong, and why I’m being hauled in to answer for the mistakes of management . Should I take this further?

You’re right, it’s a cock up. But you seem to think HR have done nothing wrong and are the fall guys having to sort it all out. They have made an awkward situation far worse!

A senior HR person should have the sense to discuss an issue with this with the relevant senior manager and then take a measured approach from there. Of course none of us would have objected to being told we had been given the wrong information and being corrected! The issues are:

1. HR clearly had not agreed an approach with management before the announcement was made.
2. A section of our team was confronted about this BEFORE a conversation with the senior manager involved.
3. When it was explained to the Head of HR what had happened - and it was pointed out that she had forgotten to include three members of the team - she STILL chose to repeat the same speech and to attempt for a second time to shift the blame.

As you say - all quite incredible!

How was the card used without the PIN? Did the boss share that too?

if so, he/she’s an unbelievable fuck up. Not only has he compromised the company’s legal standpoint by announcing a redundancy in process, therefore giving weight to the outcome being preconceived, but for some bizarre reason he’s decided there’s so much to discuss about a very sensitive and confidential scenario, you’re all sent off to the pub to do so. Then he gives someone security access to a company credit card.

HR are in damage limitation emergency mode at this point. Definitely launch your grievance which will be a grenade into the mix, if only for fun to watch things implode further. Won’t do your career any favours though.

They’d be insane to confirm Angela’s redundancy after this. She’d have a really strong case of unfair due process, presuming she has more than two years’ service. Plus damage to feelings etc added on, based on you all having a good old natter about her in the pub.

I don’t agree that it’s bullying to go to the pub for a debrief among colleagues. No senior person was there leading a rant about Angela. I would frame it as promoting team health. Bullying as a term is so over and incorrectly used.

This wasn't a debrief though, was it?

I absolutely do think that a team outing to the pub can be useful and appropriate in some circumstances. A debrief in the pub is unprofessional, which wouldn't matter too much with people who were clued in enough about sensitive information to be quiet and discreet while meeting in a small group.

The problem which tips this into bullying is that the senior manager gave out confidential and inaccurate information on a colleague, and then used company finding to send the team off to speculate in a pub during working hours. This is just insanity. And yes it is barely possible that nothing inappropriate happened in the pub: that people just said, well, seems Angela is leaving us, who knows why / perhaps we know why but let's just enjoy the afternoon off. It would be reasonable for Angela to conclude that her colleagues - she's still an employee - were encouraged to speculate about her in a public place, over drinks, and did so.

If people in this company are really so volatile that they couldn't get on with their work until closing time without audible speculation, a manager could say, I can see a lot of people are unsettled - feel free to leave for the day whenever you like. Or he could conduct a debrief if there is something to debrief on. Sending people to the pub to speculate is just creating a culture of gossip, drama and unprofessionalism - fertile ground for bullying.

It’s bizarre that you still don’t get it.

HR does not care about you - you’re a small fry to them AND a potential liability. It’s not a combination indicative of a valuable employee I’m afraid.

They don’t about what you think about their approach to a major issue, which this falls under. You do realise that regardless of Angela leaving, she can still raise formal complaints and take legal action against your employer? I would love to see how you react if you’re named as a witness and cross examined in court, you’ll be torn apart.

And again no one forgot about you - you came to work late. Are HR supposed to know your leisurely schedule off by heart now?

If you’re leaping to the conclusion that everyone has gone off to celebrate, that should tell you something about how you were perceived as a manager - in addition to how your former employers rated you as a performer.

Well no, as you can see by this thread the majority of people hearing your tale feel that Angela was treated unfairly and was ganged up on by essentially a bunch of vultures. It’s not unheard of for low level employees to be jealous of their management and their salaries. You come across as really bitter and insecure within this thread. I’m not seeing competence here. Even great managers cannot thrive, when their team is hostile. It’s saying a lot, when even the head of HR got the impression that your team is toxic.

How did she come to work late? I’ve worked somewhere where I could start any time between 8.30 and 10, and I didn’t need to let anyone know when I was planning to turn up - not my manager, and certainly not HR.

She wasn't late, but HR missing her in the first round of conversations isn't something to complain about - they got to her once she came in.

The point about the lateness was that HR now had the knowledge that management had organized this bizarre expedition. Depending on details, I do think this should have modified what they said perhaps, but it was still appropriate for them to tell OP and others what a bad idea and reflection on the company the outing was. I would expect them to acknowledge that management organized it too, but that doesn't seem worth a complaint at all, since OP and colleague brought it up on the spot in the conversation.

If the system in this company is that anyone can start between 8.30 and 10 (or whatever the OP said) then they should know not to have any meetings before 10. Plus the HR woman said she forgot about the OP!

You seem really defensive @ApricotFlan You have asked for opinions and when you don't like them you seem to be getting pretty aggressive. Expecting similar to this post!

This is a minor blip in my book. I'd forget about it but it would appear that you are the kind of person who wants to go nuclear with it! What do you want to happen? Do you want the HR person sacked or reprimanded? FYI, that's really unlikely to happen.

My advice would be to forget about it and move on. If you don't like the management culture, leave!

Sure, I agree but there's no problem to complain about. They made an error and fixed it immediately. They were right to meet the rest first thing anyway, to stop the false rumour and speculation at the first opportunity.

OP suffered no detriment from two meetings running instead of one - she just has no grounds for complaint.

How the hell have you got 'forgot me' from a meeting that was held because you started later.. and once you were in you were taken to the boardroom?

are you usually this entitled or terminally offended?

all of you sound unprofessional and I also agree Angela has had a lucky escape.
first lister nails it. LET IT GOOOOOOOO

The whole place sounds like it's run worse than a circus on wheels. I'd let it go and start looking for a new job instead of putting up with so many incompetent people in senior roles. Who has time for this 🤷‍♀️

What would you be hoping to achieve? You know there was an almighty cock- up. So does everyone else. Unless something else related to this happens I don't think there's much point really.

@angela

if you are on Mumsnet, can we please hear your side of things? Thanks.

Perfectly reasonable for you to minute exactly what happened and to register YOUR displeasure at being lectured for following instructions.

You can absolutely claim to feel victimised by both Angela's boss, and HR's incompetence.

Email it all and having a record of it is never a bad thing.

Many years ago a member of the management team was shagging a young married woman colleague in an international company that I worked for.
There was SO much gossip about it as he had a lovely wife too.
Anyway the affair woman complained about the gossip and that there was so much talk about it at a party the previous weekend.

Incompetent HR had the nerve to contact the women, only the women, in the company, and ask that the refrain from gossiping.

Well, there was blue murder when HR found themselves the subject of a huge complaint as to who the hell they thought they were telling people what they could talk about outside the office.
They were told very firmly to tell the two of them to keep their pance on if they didn't want to be gossiped about.
HR apologised about the way the crude manner in which they went about things.
There were huge mutterings about "who the fxxk do HR think they are telling people what theyvcan talk about".
It was genuinely hugely damaging to a large HR department.
Both affair partners moved jobs in months, we believed they were "encouraged" to move on.

Incompetent HR had the nerve to contact the women, only the women, in the company, and ask that the refrain from gossiping.

Men tend to be bigger gossips, IME.

But there can be circumstances outside work where it can count as a work occasion for cases of bullying, and you should be careful what you talk about. (Being sent yo the pub by a manager with a corporate card would definitely count.)

So, @ApricotFlan now you know what to expect from HR at this employer.

Unless you want to trade your job for the satisfaction of proving a point, I would let it go, knowing you have not been the dick here and can sleep easy.

Sounds like a major communication breakdown happened... I still can't tell if Angela has been made redundant or is in a 'process'? Presumably this wasn't actually clarified in the office or in the pub.
The pub, during the day, is also not a suitable place to be discussing this kind of topic. It should have been made absolutely clear during an official meeting in the office, along with some reassurance that your jobs were safe. Your senior manager made a bad call not only suggesting going to the pub but pretty much mandating it (don't get the inclusivity police started!)
It's all very odd and I would honestly find it very unsettling... and probably be looking for another job.

This is a bizarre mix of wilful ignorance and things you have simply invented. It’s explained perfectly clearly in my OP that I, and everyone in the company, has flexibility over their start time. Your snide little digs about my “leisurely schedule” have just made you look stupid. And no, I don’t expect HR to know when I’ll arrive - but I do expect them to be aware of their own fucking policy, and to be able to check if everyone is in before calling a team meeting.

Well no, as you can see by this thread the majority of people hearing your tale feel that Angela was treated unfairly and was ganged up on by essentially a bunch of vultures. It’s not unheard of for low level employees to be jealous of their management and their salaries.

You are literally making this up. And you’re also completely ignoring that she didn’t choose to leave. Unless you think senior management saw us all “ganging up” and thought “Ooh, better make her redundant”?

Even great managers cannot thrive, when their team is hostile. It’s saying a lot, when even the head of HR got the impression that your team is toxic.

This is ridiculous. On the basis of absolutely nothing, you’ve decided this was a “great manager” struggling with a hostile team, and that the Head of HR has decided we’re “toxic”? You’re literally making all of this up - for no obvious reason. You’re really trying to suggest all eight of us in the team are the “toxic” common denominator, rather than her? And you think the company decided to sack one great manager and keep eight toxic people?

As for your drivel about cross-examination in a courtroom, I think you’ve been watching too much telly.

How the hell have you got 'forgot me' from a meeting that was held because you started later.. and once you were in you were taken to the boardroom?

Oh my god, are you doing this deliberately? I got that she’d forgotten me and my other colleagues because she said she’d forgotten us. It’s hardly the fucking Enigma code!

But she pulled you all 'forgotten-ers' when you all arrived, so what's the big deal?

you seem to make this whole thing about you. Some poor woman has been made redundant and you're all acting like monkeys in a circus.

She got what was coming.

Have you decided whether you’ll take it further and, if so, if it’s your boss or the boss boss?

Maybe, but the more people gossip and speculate while a process like this is running, the higher her chances of either remaining or getting a large payout. Something for your HR and managers to be very aware of.

It's quite possible a severance agreement has been worked out but not signed, since she'll have a statutory period to take legal advice. If she has a new grievance - and I would say your manager has definitely given her grounds for it - that can scupper the agreement and she may choose to stay and pursue it, pursue a claim for unfair dismissal, or take yesterday's happenings as grounds for constructive dismissal.

If you and your colleagues don't want to give her more and more power in this process, you need to understand why HR are so agitated and stop speculating at work or work events. You were certainly misled by your manager. I agree with you that HR should have acknowledged they'd been told that. But they have done that since, and they covered what they did when they forgot you came in later. I don't see that anything has happened that isn't covered by the clarification during your conversation with HR.

But if you want something in particular from a complaint about HR, think about what that might be - an email clarifying the chain of events and assurance that they won't forget starting times in future is probably the most you should expect.

I wouldn't bother trying to make life more difficult for your managers or HR - this sequence of events will already have caused them enough trouble, through the managers' fault!

The person who is really in the wrong here is the senior manager who not only told the team that Angela had been made redundant, when she is in a process, but told the team to go to the pub to gossip about her there.

no wonder HR are shitting themselves, as this is exactly the sort of thing that Angela could use against them if she caught wind of it.

I agree it’s wrong for the HR team to decide to tell off the team without clarifying what had happened with the senior manager involved. That makes them look foolish at best.

At the same time, I don’t think it’s worth raising a formal complaint about. What exactly do you hope to achieve from it? What you could do is raise it in a 121 with the senior manager involved and say you’re unhappy with the way it was handled when you were only following what you’d been asked to do. You might get an apology from him. Beyond that, I’d let it go.