Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

What’s different about his “trans woman” identity, apart from the 6 year old girl claim? He’s a man claiming to be female.

Well then you are completely an utterly wrong and it’s really bizarre that you think this tbh.

I know I am a woman because I was observed to be female at birth, started periods at the appropriate age (and medical investigations would have ensued if I didn’t), had to avoid getting pregnant for several years and birthed several children (and would have had medical investigations if I didn’t get pregnant).

How does a man ‘know’ he is a woman?

But how it is any weirder for him to say he's a woman than he's six?

He seems to sincerely believe that he's a woman and that he's six.

Why is one of those beliefs completely acceptable and the other makes him a weirdo?

I have to have something in common with them in order for us all to be women.

Otherwise "women" means "a group of people with nothing in common".

Really? Ok.

You have something in common with most women because you have children. You have something in common with me because, while I don't have children, we both have bodies of the female reproductive category. Very nearly all women have in common the experience of living in a female body with its hormone fluctuations, pregnancies, periods, contraceptive issues, menopause, etc.

Every woman shares the differences in physical capacity between our sex and males. Very nearly all women share the need for background safety precautions due to those physical differences. All women are adversely affected by living in a male-dominated world: these effects are so pervasive and wide-ranging that no book has managed to cover them all, yet we share the frustrations and disappointments consequent on belonging to the sex treated as 'other' in a man's world.

That's only the biology! Nobody escapes the gendered socialisation pertaining in their own culture. Even those of us who've tried to throw it off can sympathise with women who go along with it, sharing so-called women's interests from skincare to food preparation, childcare to clothes with decent pockets.

I have now had a chance to reread your link.

Would you please expand on just what you find compelling about this blog post?

Firstly, it describes that sex is not reliant on just chromosomes. This is accurate and it is correct. Established science has stated that it is not just chromosomes that define a person's sex category. The first and foremost distinction is whether a body has been formed around the production of either large or small gametes.

I am happy to link several different experts that make this statement. From developmental biologists to evolutionary biologists and doctors.

I believe the article I linked up would also state the same.

Too easy.

Next, this post talks about brains. However, there is no evidence at all that has any strength of conclusion about brain differences. And that there is no such thing as a male brain or a female brain. Of course, there are structural differences and there is also differences due to hormonal influences. I don't believe that I have come across any feminist that has said that there is a female brain though. Have you?

This part drawing on weak conclusions that are weakly articulated too.

'Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions,trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth.'

I am very happy to post the links to two of the studies referred to here. One didn't even bother to mention that same sex attracted male people also have some specific brain patterns and the study did not consider which of those male people were homosexual and which were not. And the 'appeared similar' is ignoring the fact that the results were well within the male range and there were other male people in that range too. So.... the results didn't resemble 'female brains' they just resembled other male brains.

As I said, happy to link up those studies.

Then this piece refers to hormones.

No male person naturally produces female levels of all hormones. So, what is the relevance here?

Also, it argues that being female is not just about hormones. Well..... no shit Sherlock. Being female goes back to having a body formed for the production of large gametes regardless of whether that person's body has ever, will ever or is producing those large gametes. Which is the established scientific definition of who is categorised as a female human.

Not only that, but seriously, what the fuck is 'typically linked to feminine-coded behavior' that is driven by estrogen? There is no reference for this, why should anyone believe it?

However, there is nothing in this link that supports 'While this is a small overview, the science is clear and conclusive: sex is not binary, transgender people are real'

What they have tried to do is to leverage people with chromosomal medical differences where it is already widely known and established that these may not be fully reliable to categorise someone's sex category.

They tried to make some weak findings for brains much more relevant and conclusive than they actually were. While making another false claim that people are saying that there is a male or female brain...

This blog post is not compelling at all and it doesn't really present an evidenced position at all.

I think the 6 year old girl claim is the fairly obvious difference, no?

They create their ‘identity’ based on assumptions and observations of women.

No this isn’t how it works at all.

I mean, he has actually experienced being six. He has never experienced being a woman.

On that basis I'd say it's less weird that he identifies as a six year old than it is that he identifies as a woman.

@Ereshkigalangcleg
are you saying 1 clearly weird man = all trans are weird?

Next, let's discuss whether sex and gender identity are the same thing or not and let the obfuscation fill the rest of the thread...

Surely you don’t even believe yourself at this point?

I don’t, personally, subscribe to the “always deep down been a woman/man’ school of thought. I don’t think there is a ‘deep down’ with gender at all. I see it more as a desire to be seen in a certain way, to live in the world that way, that may come into being at any time and be expressed or not expressed to a variety of degrees.

I hear that this experience of wanting is normally pretty unpleasant if you’re trans, and goes on being unpleasant even if you transition as you are very aware that much as you want to be, some people will want to make sure you know they know you aren’t.

What I don’t really get is why posters on here are so keen to say they can ‘always tell’ and reiterate ‘they’ll never be a woman/man’. Im pretty sure trans people know that better than anyone, I don’t think that’s news to them. I’d like to think maybe there’s a fundamental misunderstanding where people think ‘trans women are women’ was more than a funky catchphrase, and didn’t just mean ‘yes you’re welcome in feminism’. I think trans women will have lots to add to feminism, myself.

But instead it became about toilets and prisons and sports hospitals really early on, which seems so odd to me. These are all manageable at the level of specifics, unlike the simple ‘yes you can be in our club’ that trans women hoped for from us.

I guess maybe it feels like a threat to some women. I don’t mean to safety, I mean to power. In that sense it reminds me very much of the MRA movement

I think you're the one who doesn't believe yourself, tbh.

It's OK. You don't have to pretend to believe trans women are women anymore. The Supreme Court said they're not women, so it's OK for you to admit that they're not.

@potpourree with all due respect I don’t think you are in the best position to try and summarise what I think, as you’ve clearly understood very little of what I’ve tried to explain to you.

Why can’t you answer the question? Why can you identify as a different sex but not age or race?

We were told endlessly by Stonewall and other that transwomen were literally women.

That’s like asking “how can the earth be a sphere”, or the sun rise in the east. It just is.

Some people ‘know’ they are Jesus.

It doesn’t make it true.

Of course we don't believe that he's six, despite his belief. He's not six.

But we're told that men are women because that's their belief. But they're men.

You must see the dissonance there?

That’s quite offensive and rude. I thought I was fairly polite. You can’t with a straight face say that identifying as a 6 yr is less weird than identifying as a woman. That’s not a gender critical opinion - it’s a transphobic one

You clearly use the word woman to mean something other than adult human female so is there another word we can use that means only adult human female?

Absolutely. The dishonesty around the whole debate has been eye-opening to me. There are plenty of people who sit and type out "so are you saying..." while. knowing full well that's not what the poster was saying.

I've been told several times that I've posted the exact opposite of what I had! Just really odd behaviour.