Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

You don't have to identify as a woman if you actually are one.

I would be a woman regardless of how I identified.

I don't understand what the fuck trans women believe they are identifying with.

Yes, I also differ from a lot of mumsnet in that I will let literally anyone use my toilet. Even tradesmen

If I look at trans friends they look, sound, act, smell, dress and walk more like me than my husband

My trans friend still sounds, acts, smells, dresses and walks more like my husband, because they're both men.

Trans friend had his genitalia removed, too. He still looked like a man.

He is having a sexual relationship with another transwoman. So essentially, they're gay men.

You must be aware that the above post is 'transphobic', OP. You say you've been called a TERF and, by the applicable standard, you are.

When you think about the reasons for 'no sharing of female spaces', you naturally arrive at the correct conclusion that women feel threatened by men in their intimate/private spaces. We aim to keep all males out of those spaces because it's impossible to know beforehand how much of a threat each male may be. Its a basic safeguarding principle.

When you hear us talking of transwomen as predators, rapists, etc, you're not hearing a statement that all transwomen are rapists, you're hearing the very same statements that are reasonably made about men in general. That's rational because transwomen are men. (Before we start cavilling about vocabulary, I'm using 'men' in its normal sense of 'adult male humans'.)

I've been trying to defend women's rights, safety, opportunities and nouns for a long time now. I've never seen anybody say transwomen are all violent or sex offenders. It's necessary to say some are because we have to repeatedly defend the safeguarding position.

It is, however, the case that trans-identified males are statistically more likely to be convicted of sex offences. Some of their most lauded spokespeople have turned out to be prolific offenders. This isn't surprising when you consider known behavioural patterns of such men (see also: priests). What's a little more surprising is genderists' flat denial that such is the case.

In my view, this is an argument for heightened caution around transwomen: we know they're exploiting public support in order to negate women's rights; we don't know how far any given transwoman plans to exploit it; we do know that they'll be supported and even praised for whatever they do even if it's predatory.

I accept that some people might not be ready to adopt the view expressed in my last paragraph. That's okay; part of campaigning for women's rights is knowing that we campaign for all women, including those who disagree with us.

Ah, here's a 'your toilet at home is mixed sex' here in the wild.

Because a single occupant toilet in your own home is just the same as a public toilet apparently!

Single occupant plane and train toilets are normally mentioned too. It's the trifecta.

I don't understand what the fuck trans women believe they are identifying with.

Right. You don’t understand. Yet you feel so entitled to be so vocal in your opinions about it? Why?

So someone off the street? Gosh.

Well let's start a campaign to have pictures of genitalia on the doors instead and see how that goes.

If I look at trans friends they look, sound, act, smell, dress and walk more like me than my husband.

No, they don't. I accept they're your friends and you're being very kind, but a more neutral source will tell the truth here.

They have faced discrimination similar to mine and nothing like my husbands.

They may have faced their own discrimination. It is nothing like the discrimination faced by women due to their biology.

They have hormone fluctuations on hormone therapy that sound very similar to mine

Its nothing like a woman's hormonal experience. This is getting a bit embarrassing now.

Stop trying to gaslight women into believing that these men who like to dress as women have something in common with them. It's really offensive.

So if a stranger knocked on your door and asked to use your toilet you'd let them in? Because I wouldn't!

I'd let a 'tradesman' if they were working on my house, but I use women as much as possible due to male based trauma.

If they want me to believe that we are both identifying as the same thing, they need to be able to explain what that thing is.

It can't be a female person, because they are male.

So what is it?

The reason I am vocal about it is because I object to someone saying that we are in the same category because of how they identify, as if my opinion on the matter were completely irrelevant.

I’m assuming you’re asking me what I think makes them women? Aside from a small minority of predatory dickheads, I would say for me, if someone feels strongly enough that their physical being does not match their internal view of self….thats enough for me. In other words, if an adult identifies as a woman then I will respect their wishes

You let strangers just come off the street. Gosh how kind. Can you put your address, so we all have it?

I’m not going to pretend it’s happened more than twice but it’s happened twice. I live very near a football stadium so not as wacky as it sounds. Not really the point tho I’m sure we can agree.

Would you respect them if they said they identified as a different age or race?

It may be enough for you.

That doesn't mean it's enough for any degree of scientific rigour or any of the rest of us.

What you mean is, if they're not a dickhead, you're willing to be polite and pretend they are women even though you know they're not really.

If you believed they really were women, why would you object to them using women's toilets, joining women's rape crisis groups or competing in women's sports?

What is this thing you are looking for in terms of having things in common?

i Am a biological woman- Am I to assume that I have anything in common with you? Because I can’t see it based on any of our longstanding interactions.

What are the "more in common" things that
• one group of males share with
• all females that is not shared by
• any male not in the group?
One or two examples would be nice.

Both identity as women

Fail women as a group dont identify as women they just are women and nobody has yet offered a definition of what it actually means to "identify as a woman"

Desire for recognition and respect

Fail men want that too

Experiences of misogyny and sexism

Fail this group of men are not subjected to dislike of or prejudice for being women because they are men and are benchmarked against the "man do/are social gender role".

Concern for safety in public spaces

Fail men have that too

Interest in or pressure around appearance

Fail men have that too

Need for gender-affirming health care

Fail women need sex specific health care.

Experience of gendered socialization

Fail men have that too.

Shared communities and solidarity

Fail errr you are on this thread???

Family and relationship roles

Fail men have that too and the whole growing a child bit well......

Emotional experiences shaped by gender

Fail men have that too

Impact of hormones on body and mood

Fail men have that and deciding to disrupt the natural levels of hormone production is not a "woman" thing.

Use of clothing, style, and makeup to express themselves

Fail men do that too (some are even better at picking clothing, style and doing makeup than women)

What are the "more in common" things that
• one group of males share with
• all females that is not shared by
• any male not in the group?

Any examples would be nice

Bit of an odd remark, do you often share your address with anonymous internet posters who are arguing with you?

@TheKeatingFive
If I look at trans friends they look, sound, act, smell, dress and walk more like me than my husband.
No, they don't. I accept they're your friends and you're being very kind, but a more neutral source will tell the truth

Crikey - that’s incredible that you can know that without even seeing me or my husband!

It's not even that it's just randoms off the street, it's that in a public loo you're in there AT THE SAME TIME.

I imagine even the very generous pp who allows strangers to use her toilet doesn't allow them in while she's in there washing her hands.

they need to be able to explain what that thing is.

It’s a woman. You know you are a woman. They know they are a woman. That’s it.

You don’t understand how they know that. Or why they know that. That’s understandable.
But you don’t need to understand the how or why or those things, you just need to understand that they do- which simply requires some fairly basic observation .

If that same person felt strongly enough that they were an 8 year old girl rather than an adult women should they be allowed to share changing rooms with other 8 year old girls? If they felt strongly enough that they were 8 would you respect their wishes

Well, yes, if you are biologically female, we have that in common.