Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

@thebear1 - The gloating over the recent court ruling, that sex is biological. I do agree but can still show compassion for trans people upset by the ruling.

We've been following and supporting this case since the first judicial review in 2021. We've put our hands in our own pockets and collectively raise hundreds of thousands of pounds. We've taken the time to read and discuss the arguments on both sides and the judgments at each stage and to watch or follow the hearings.

For Women Scotland was started by three FWR posters. We have watched as it has grown into a formidable organisation that has taken on the Scottish government and won us back all the sex based rights which should have been ours since 2010. It was an incrediblly important win.

Of course we're pleased!

Why would I feel compassion for people who've had to give back all the stuff they stole?

It's a shame that trans people were lied to for so long by their own organisations but frankly they should have seen this coming. Like I said, it has taken years to get here. Perhaps if they had once engaged with us instead of spending the past decade calling us names, threatening us with violence and declaring #NoDebate whenever we tried to discuss it then they would have been prepared. Perhaps they could have used that time to campaign for additional provision that did not shit all over women instead of calling us nazi scum whenever we suggested it it. Perhaps we wouldn't have needed to go to court.

So I find it a bit rich when people who have had no interest or involvement in any of this until the supreme court judgment landed say things like 'well, of course I agree with you, but think of the poor trans!'

No. I'm bored thinking about them. I don't hate them but frankly, aside from the children caught up in this I've run out of compassion.

Poor behaviour is poor behaviour no matter what you ‘really’ are. That’s about it for me, if you mean criminality. If you mean using toilets I just can’t see any issue I’m sorry. I don’t care if cis men use ladies toilets. I use men’s toilets quite often.

Brava. Well said.

If I have shamed anyone then that wasn’t my intention. Do you feel shamed? Because I’m sorry if you feel that way. I’ve looked over my posts and can’t see anything that looks shaming but will have a proper read through to make sure. Would you be prepared to tell us the number of trans women that need to be harmed or commit suicide before you respect their desire not to be classified as a man? I don’t really like how confrontational that has come across but I’m trying to mirror your tone

I think trans women are women yes.

So you think men can change sex. Gosh tell us more. How does that work?

I just think there’s a better answer than universally excluding a group of people who have more in common with women that they do with men

I find this idea about "having things in common" really interesting. I have various things in common with lots of people in my life. I bet you can't tell if I list them what sex we are.

Person A.
Dancing. Love pink and sparkly things. Long hair.

Person B.
Shorter than average. Brown eyes. Excellent swimmers. Dancing. Music. Love red wine.

Person C.
Blonde. Love theatre. Reading. Bad jokes. History.

Person D.
Christian. Bad jokes. Movies. Books. Anxiety.

Person E.
Long hair. Coffee. Musicals. Books. Anxiety. Music. Movies. Baking. Puns. Sarcasm.

Person F.
Unicorns. Sparkles. Musicals. Movies. Music.

Now presumably you can work out who's male and who is female based on how many things we have in common? And which ones I am happy to share private spaces with?

ETA: most of the time these things we do or don't have in common are irrelevant actually. But if I'm in the toilets/changing room/hospital I only want other women (the biological meaning) there too.

Personally speaking, that desire is impossible. They can’t change reality. They are going to be classified as men because they are men. The end. The rest is a non sequitur.

You dont care, cool, good for you. You aren't every woman though, are you?

I have a friend who was brutally raped and would be extremely triggered by any man in a space where she's more vulnerable, like the toilets. She cares. Does she not count?

How many rape victims, or women of a particular religion or me, who just wants to be in a space without the presence of a biological male, have to say no to males being in their spaces before you say ‘ok their feelings matter’.

Every word of this.

Especially this part:

Why would I feel compassion for people who've had to give back all the stuff they stole?

When I see some real compassion from members of the trans community for women who have been fired for saying humans can't change sex, or been forced to recount their experience of being raped in front of a man in their rape crisis group, or called bigoted and turned away from a rape crisis centre for wanting female only support, or sexually assaulted in a female only space by a trans identifying man, or punched by a trans activist at a peaceful women's rights demonstration, then maybe I'll start feeling some more compassion for them.

But right now my stocks of goodwill towards the trans community are running low and they can only be replenished by a show of goodwill from the other side.

Both identity as women
Desire for recognition and respect
Experiences of misogyny and sexism
Concern for safety in public spaces
Interest in or pressure around appearance
Need for gender-affirming health care
Experience of gendered socialization
Shared communities and solidarity
Family and relationship roles
Emotional experiences shaped by gender
Impact of hormones on body and mood
Use of clothing, style, and makeup to express themselves

Why can't we respect transwomen not wanting to be lumped in with men but also respect women who do not want to share with any male and that includes transwomen? Basically mixed sex and single sex options.

This is what the Equality Act says: when sex matters, it is ok to exclude transwomen with a GRC even though their papers says they are legally female.
Btw, legally any transwoman without a GRC is classified as a man and should legally be excluded from womens spaces and facilities anyway.

What does identifying as a woman entail?

How many trans women do you think have committed suicide or otherwise been harmed because people don't believe they are women?

On mumsnet there is a post about a lesbian group meeting on the 5th July, it was advertised as a only born woman event, most woman were have fun etc, but then we had the trans community threatening to protest, some of the things they said were very unkind and unwarranted.
It's a very difficult situation but women do deserve their own spaces, I know of 3 men who live as women, 2 of them are very quiet, use disabled toilets and want to live their life with little stress. The third who was a good friend until they transitioned, at this point they became really nasty and if you didn't agree with everything they said they would start the name calling and pushing you out the way.
From my own experience I tend to keep well away nowadays from an experience I had when I was in USA, I went to the bathroom, didn't take any notice of the other person until they started shouting at me that they had the right to be there, am quite a can look out for myself kind of girl but it did unnerved me. If it was a younger person who would they have felt?
Have you ever been to a let woman speak event? You will be shouted at, pushed and pulled, go on YouTube and take a look it's very well documented, I think woman have had enough and want to take back control
Just my own thoughts

Where is the compassion for abused and sexually assaulted women who feel scared in unisex bathrooms and shelters?

Jessica can wear his dress and nails. It doesn't mean he needs to slash in the ladies. The men need to accept trans women who can all pee at the urinal because 90+% of trans keep their genitals.

Their 'identification as a woman' is not based on any knowledge or understanding of what a woman actually is. How could it be? they're men.

They identify as a man's fantasy of what a woman is. I have precisely zero in common with that.

Whats FWR and TW?

They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling

Isn’t this a starting point for any discussion on this topic as opposed to an ‘agenda’?

TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

These are specific identified groups rather than stereotypes. The last group on your list already has general compassion on FWR. Which other types of trans people do you have in mind for our compassion?

Nb. There is no excuse for men to be in female loos so they are all unacceptable, perv (sic) or not.

I guess for me it’s more like putting on some scrubs and going down the pub, ie people might think you’re a doctor, you do you

The Feminist Sex and Gender board and ‘transwomen’. 😁

Sorry but transwomen do not have any experience of mood swings by changing hormones, or periods, or menopause. That is an experience that is never shared between transwomen and women.

As for clothing and makeup to express themselves, that is gender neutral: every person uses clothes and (lack of) makeup to express themselves.

Emotional experience shaped by gender is also not true: transwomen have the unique experience of chosing the gender expectations of the opposite sex whereas women decide whether they want to meet the expectations of their sex or not.

Sorry, I can go on, but those are not experiences shared by some male people and all female people that women don't share with men. The starting point is just too different from each other and it ignores everything that is unique to female people.

I don't really understand what @RetiringRita is trying to say? That there are 2 sexes. But we must show compassion and be more kind or polite?

Question: why? When there are frequent banners during marches calling for the burning or killing or actual violence against women (the biological ones who know there are only 2 sexes and want to keep safeguards in place). Which the police never seem to do anything about.

Has the OP gone along to those demos and asked those demonstrators to dial down their tone and be more kind to us??🤔

I am compassionate to the numerous trans identifying people I know in real life, but that doesn't mean I'm not simultaneously incredibly angry at the gender ideology and its supporters who have promoted this dangerous and unethical movement. And angry for the women and children who have suffered from it.

Both identity as women I don't identify as a woman.
Desire for recognition and respect my male children want this too
Experiences of misogyny and sexism Men and boys are victims of toxic masculinity
Concern for safety in public spaces my son wants this too. Rather than being abused for not being masculine enough.
Interest in or pressure around appearance men also have this.
Need for gender-affirming health care everyone might need this. Incidentally as a woman I can't have my PCOS beard lasered off on the NHS. But my TW friend can have theirs removed (obviously theirs isn't caused by PCOS)
Experience of gendered socialization i have no idea how TW experience this. But i suspect its not the same as me.
Shared communities and solidarity what?
Family and relationship roles My role in a family will never be the same as a TW, although there might be some cross over
Emotional experiences shaped by gender ?
Impact of hormones on body and mood TW dont have the same hormone fluctuations as me
Use of clothing, style, and makeup to express themselves Everyone does this.

I don't identify as a woman. Many of us don't.

Everyone wants recognition and respect, particularly men.

Trans women don't experience misogyny. They have been raised and socialised as males. They may experience transphobia, but that is an entirely separate thing.

Women aren't the only people who have concerns about safety in public places.

Many men feel interest in and pressure around physical appearance. Some women do not.

Women don't need gender affirming healthcare. We need female specific healthcare, which is the opposite of what trans women need.

Trans women experience male socialisation.

We don't have any specific shared communities or solidarity.

Not sure what you're saying about family and relationship roles.

I have emotional experiences shaped by sex. Not one trans woman had ever had one of these experiences.

We don't have the same hormones as trans women.

Clothes, makeup, hairstyle....you what now? Fashion choices aren't what makes someone a woman. This is so offensive.