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Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

1000 replies

RetiringRita · 14/07/2025 13:47

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
TheKeatingFive · 14/07/2025 20:36

Horseebooks · 14/07/2025 20:35

Well, bit of a mugs game innit. I could say anything at all, I could have the Great Secret Of Trans that Changes Everything and you can just say ‘not good enough’

So, nah. You can engage, or you can belittle, you made your call

But you don't. Because humans can't change sex. And that is the beginning and the end of it.

RetiringRita · 14/07/2025 20:36

Well I've never been called a 'sweet summer child'.
Laughable. If we still had the funny button I'd use it.

OP posts:
Tandora · 14/07/2025 20:36

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 14/07/2025 20:29

IF A TRANS WOMAN IS IN IT, IT IS NOT A FEMALE ONLY SPACE AND YOU ARE ACTING ILLEGALLY IF YOU EXCLUDE OTHER MEN, TANDORA.

How many times do you need this explaining to you? Do I need to take out shares in Crayola?

Nope that’s your interpretation; it has not been tested in law

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 20:37

Horseebooks · 14/07/2025 20:35

Well, bit of a mugs game innit. I could say anything at all, I could have the Great Secret Of Trans that Changes Everything and you can just say ‘not good enough’

So, nah. You can engage, or you can belittle, you made your call

You can try out your best arguments. Go on. You might convince some waverers reading the thread.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 14/07/2025 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Tangfastic71 · 14/07/2025 20:38

I’ve read it before and I still side with the original article. It’s where my values, inner logic and beliefs lie and yours lie somewhere else. And that…is OK 😊

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 20:38

Tangfastic71 · 14/07/2025 20:38

I’ve read it before and I still side with the original article. It’s where my values, inner logic and beliefs lie and yours lie somewhere else. And that…is OK 😊

It’s a truly terrible article 😂

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 14/07/2025 20:38

MarvellousMonsters · 14/07/2025 20:34

No, you’re right @RetiringRita no man has ever claimed to be trans in order to gain access to women….

Well we’ve now got a poster over on the JKR T-shirt thread saying men are now saying they are trans men to gain access to women’s spaces (despite the previous stance that men don’t have to pretend to be anything in order to access women’s spaces) and that’s all down to us women so I personally can’t keep up.

Tandora · 14/07/2025 20:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

They didn’t confirm it at all, that’s objectively not true . Nowhere did they specify what you are claiming :

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 14/07/2025 20:40

Horseebooks · 14/07/2025 20:35

Well, bit of a mugs game innit. I could say anything at all, I could have the Great Secret Of Trans that Changes Everything and you can just say ‘not good enough’

So, nah. You can engage, or you can belittle, you made your call

Lot of words to say pretty much nothing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 20:40

Of course it’s entirely fine for you to have your opinion and I’m not trying to change your mind, but you’re posting that silly childish article as if it’s some groundbreaking science that we should all read.

Helleofabore · 14/07/2025 20:40

Tangfastic71 · 14/07/2025 20:33

I’m still not sure what it is you’re fighting for or why, or what exactly your argument is or what you want to achieve? I mean, it’s clear you’re very passionate about it which I suppose is good…but the world is not black and white. And it certainly isn’t clear cut divided between men and women.

I found this paper very interesting if you want a scientific view?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

I very much respect your view and opinion….and will answer your questions. The difference between a man who’s lost his penis and one who has had it removed to me is fairly simple. One identifies as a man and has lost his penis, the other has felt so strongly aligned with being a woman all their life that they have gone through a dangerous and sometimes orgasm banishing surgery to ensure their physical body matches how they feel inside.

I don’t know what the answer is with regards to how we treat trans women in prisons…I just think there’s a better answer than universally excluding a group of people who have more in common with women that they do with men

"And it certainly isn’t clear cut divided between men and women."

It is very clear cut between who is a male person and who is a female person.

You seem confused and you keep slipping back to using 'women' and 'men' when the legitimate discrimination available to exclude male people is based on sex. Which is very clear cut. And I provided you with a definition which you didn't bother to acknowledge my reply.

"One identifies as a man and has lost his penis, the other has felt so strongly aligned with being a woman all their life that they have gone through a dangerous and sometimes orgasm banishing surgery to ensure their physical body matches how they feel inside."

Can you explain how a male person who has never been a female person knows that what they feel is 'female'.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is an act of misogyny by the way.

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

And no male can have that body, not matter what chemicals or surgeries they have.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different?

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

thebear1 · 14/07/2025 20:40

BMW6 · 14/07/2025 16:55

Celebrating a massive victory is not "gloating".

Where was your compassion for the women who were trolled, threatened, sacked?
For the women who have had their meetings invaded by TRA and been physically attacked BY MEN?

I can have compassion for multiple people at once. What a ridiculous argument.

Tangfastic71 · 14/07/2025 20:41

TheKeatingFive · 14/07/2025 20:34

I don’t know what the answer is with regards to how we treat trans women in prisons…I just think there’s a better answer than universally excluding a group of people who have more in common with women that they do with men

Who says they have more in common with women than they have with men? A huge proportion of women would strongly disagree with that.

What proportion of women think that trans women have more in common with men?

spannasaurus · 14/07/2025 20:41

Tandora · 14/07/2025 20:39

They didn’t confirm it at all, that’s objectively not true . Nowhere did they specify what you are claiming :

So can you say which part of the Equality Act you can use to defend your self against a sex discrimination claim made by a man who has been barred from the women plus transwomen toilets.

Horseebooks · 14/07/2025 20:42

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 14/07/2025 20:40

Lot of words to say pretty much nothing.

…cool? Where are you going with this or are you just wanting to put me down for some reason

TheKeatingFive · 14/07/2025 20:42

RetiringRita · 14/07/2025 20:36

Well I've never been called a 'sweet summer child'.
Laughable. If we still had the funny button I'd use it.

Honestly, the pattern is repeated time after time. Tone is always the last bastion. It's not what we say, it's the way that we say it.

Meanwhile, the TRAs demand the decapitation of TERFs and that's A OK.

We get it, we really do.

Anyway, given that I believe you do support women in their requirement for same sex spaces, answer me this.

If a transwoman deliberately flouts women's clearly stated needs and the law and attempts to insert themselves in women's changing rooms or domestic violence shelters. Who is in the wrong?

The transwoman who has done this, or is evil witch TERFs who would call him out?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 20:42

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 14/07/2025 20:40

Lot of words to say pretty much nothing.

There’s no defensible argument for why we should believe a group of men are women, is there, once we’ve established that emotional blackmail doesn’t fly here. So not surprising.

Tangfastic71 · 14/07/2025 20:43

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 20:38

It’s a truly terrible article 😂

I think it’s really good! Horses for courses

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 14/07/2025 20:43

Tandora · 14/07/2025 20:39

They didn’t confirm it at all, that’s objectively not true . Nowhere did they specify what you are claiming :

Lordy, what did the SC say then?

It sounded crystal clear to me.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 14/07/2025 20:43

Tangfastic71 · 14/07/2025 20:33

I’m still not sure what it is you’re fighting for or why, or what exactly your argument is or what you want to achieve? I mean, it’s clear you’re very passionate about it which I suppose is good…but the world is not black and white. And it certainly isn’t clear cut divided between men and women.

I found this paper very interesting if you want a scientific view?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

I very much respect your view and opinion….and will answer your questions. The difference between a man who’s lost his penis and one who has had it removed to me is fairly simple. One identifies as a man and has lost his penis, the other has felt so strongly aligned with being a woman all their life that they have gone through a dangerous and sometimes orgasm banishing surgery to ensure their physical body matches how they feel inside.

I don’t know what the answer is with regards to how we treat trans women in prisons…I just think there’s a better answer than universally excluding a group of people who have more in common with women that they do with men

Why should women's rights to safety and dignity be conditional on how a man says he IDENTIFIES?

Do you not understand how deeply misogynistic this is?

"Sorry Cheryle, I know you've had a traumatic life and been abused by many men, which is not unrelated to the fact that you're now serving a custodial sentence for stealing money to buy drugs, and I know the prospect of being locked up with a convicted rapist must be very scary for you, but Karen White really believes she identifies as a woman, and her identity has to be our priority."

(Except that Cheryle did not get even that much compassion, much less an apology, even after she was sexually assaulted in prison by Karen White.)

Oh and BY THE WAY, trans women do NOT have more in common with women than they do with men.

They have got absolutely fuck all in common with women besides being human.

I have more in common with trans men and regular men than I do with trans women.

TheKeatingFive · 14/07/2025 20:44

Tangfastic71 · 14/07/2025 20:38

I’ve read it before and I still side with the original article. It’s where my values, inner logic and beliefs lie and yours lie somewhere else. And that…is OK 😊

So your values and beliefs say what?

Men can become women?

Or men's desires are more important than women's needs?

Or what now?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 14/07/2025 20:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 20:42

There’s no defensible argument for why we should believe a group of men are women, is there, once we’ve established that emotional blackmail doesn’t fly here. So not surprising.

If there is I’ve yet to see it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 20:44

TheKeatingFive · 14/07/2025 20:42

Honestly, the pattern is repeated time after time. Tone is always the last bastion. It's not what we say, it's the way that we say it.

Meanwhile, the TRAs demand the decapitation of TERFs and that's A OK.

We get it, we really do.

Anyway, given that I believe you do support women in their requirement for same sex spaces, answer me this.

If a transwoman deliberately flouts women's clearly stated needs and the law and attempts to insert themselves in women's changing rooms or domestic violence shelters. Who is in the wrong?

The transwoman who has done this, or is evil witch TERFs who would call him out?

Agree. It’s always “mind your tone”. No, sorry but I’ll speak how I consider appropriate.

Tangfastic71 · 14/07/2025 20:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 20:42

There’s no defensible argument for why we should believe a group of men are women, is there, once we’ve established that emotional blackmail doesn’t fly here. So not surprising.

There’s no defensible argument for gender at all. But here we are

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