Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

Me neither.

You are talking bollocks now.

I'm not seeking any moral high ground but I am trying to stop others from claiming it.

Who is our guru btw?

I promise I will, if you bring an original argument first 🤷‍♀️

Can you please tell us what specifically you feel is lacking in compassion towards trans people? What would compassion towards trans people in particular look like?

IF A TRANS WOMAN IS IN IT, IT IS NOT A FEMALE ONLY SPACE AND YOU ARE ACTING ILLEGALLY IF YOU EXCLUDE OTHER MEN, TANDORA.

How many times do you need this explaining to you? Do I need to take out shares in Crayola?

Ooh I’m excited we have a guru! Who is it?

you’ve got a great advancement in GC theory and sixty pages in you’re going to get it out cos of…me? I’m flattered

Ah my sweet summer child.

This is not our first rodeo. We've seen this exact scenario play out many times now.

Anyway, you agree that women have a right to stand up for their own single sex spaces, don't you? Then we're all on the same side. No matter how heinous you find our 'attitude'.

What does this even mean? Who is claiming the moral high ground, apart from #beeeeeekind types? Do I think it’s immoral to advocate for men in female spaces, well yes, but it’s not my central point.

Any outstanding cases I could follow?

I find the old ones are better than any genderist talking points, but try me.

Tandora will never understand. Tandora has so much invested in not understanding.

It has not been specified that “women are born female”

Oh damn.

Did I do midwifery wrong for over forty years?

😂

Here is the bit passed by the parliament:

11Sex
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.

And you are saying :

11Sex
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—
(a)a reference to a
● person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to
• a man
[ can be either a male human and/or a female human]
or to
• a woman
[ can be either a female human and/or a male human];

(b)a reference to
● persons
[• a man or • a woman]
■ who share a protected characteristic
is a reference to
▪︎ persons of the same sex
[ • male and female Or • female and male].

What is the shared PC (who share a protected characteristic is a reference ) which splits the population into 2 individual groups?

I’m still not sure what it is you’re fighting for or why, or what exactly your argument is or what you want to achieve? I mean, it’s clear you’re very passionate about it which I suppose is good…but the world is not black and white. And it certainly isn’t clear cut divided between men and women.

I found this paper very interesting if you want a scientific view?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

I very much respect your view and opinion….and will answer your questions. The difference between a man who’s lost his penis and one who has had it removed to me is fairly simple. One identifies as a man and has lost his penis, the other has felt so strongly aligned with being a woman all their life that they have gone through a dangerous and sometimes orgasm banishing surgery to ensure their physical body matches how they feel inside.

I don’t know what the answer is with regards to how we treat trans women in prisons…I just think there’s a better answer than universally excluding a group of people who have more in common with women that they do with men

We are long past due some across the table discussion with trans rights activists where the starting point is the truth. Something orgs like Stonewall should have done from the start.

To me that would look something like this-

Trans people exist.

Transwomen are male, this makes them a subset of men.

They are a subset of men who want to live their lives as their own subjective idea of a woman.

As adults they are allowed to do this and present outwardly to the world as they wish.

How can they be assisted to live their best lives in a way that doesn't harm, discriminate and take protections, spaces and achievements away from women and girls?

How can they be protected from genuine discrimination but also be assisted to come to terms with the fact that not all people will see them as they see themselves. Whilst this may feel hurtful to an individual beliefs cannot be forced on other people.

It has been specified that women are born female. The entire Supreme Court judgment was about whether men with a GRC could claim to be women for the purpose of equality law. They can’t.

No, you’re right @RetiringRita no man has ever claimed to be trans in order to gain access to women….

Perhaps you could then read this;

https://theparadoxinstitute.org/read/a-response-to-stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia

I don’t know what the answer is with regards to how we treat trans women in prisons…I just think there’s a better answer than universally excluding a group of people who have more in common with women that they do with men

Who says they have more in common with women than they have with men? A huge proportion of women would strongly disagree with that.

Well, bit of a mugs game innit. I could say anything at all, I could have the Great Secret Of Trans that Changes Everything and you can just say ‘not good enough’

So, nah. You can engage, or you can belittle, you made your call

The relevant legal case for determining someone's sex is Corbett vs Corbett from 1970

I don’t know what the answer is with regards to how we treat transwomen in prisons…I just think there’s a better answer than universally excluding a group of people who have more in common with women that they do with men

TW don't have more in common with women though.
Just lopping off their cocks doesn't change their biology.

They're still men.