Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

@LakieLady would you be ok if a man not in address used the women’s toilets? If not, why not?

There are 27 trans identifying people in prison for rape. I’m not changing my mind because of a teeny tiny percentage of evil. And if trans men are actually women and commit rape are they men or women? If 0.005% of autistic people commit murder…do we vilify all autistic people?

No this is nothing like what I mean.

Being trans is not a pretence.

Transmen are female so can't commit rape (in the Uk)

Do you have no compassion for the female prisoners locked up with these male rapists?

They can be trans. What they cannot be is women. That's the pretence.

You don’t appear to have understood @OvaHeres post, but ask her if you want a clarification 🤷‍♀️

But by excluding males with a trans identity from any women’s services does in fact prove that they are not women. If there is a space women can go, but males cannot, it just proves that males with a trans identity are not women and should therefore not be in any women’s spaces. Glad you’ve agreed that males with a trans identity are not women.

x post!

What makes a trans person trans is their belief that they are the opposite sex.
This belief does not entitle them to access spaces & provisions for the sex they believe they are.
We are all required to abide by the same single sex rules and doing so does not erase us so why do transpeople get special rules for their belief when nobody else does?

You appear to be confusing me with someone who cares whether you “change your mind” about anything. “Trans women” are men and pose the same risk to women as other men. There is some evidence that it’s actually higher, proportionally, but I’m content simply just to treat them as a group of men. You want to make an extraordinary claim that they don’t pose the same risk, you prove it.

What you're actually saying here is that it's more important not to upset trans identified men than it is to prevent the sexual assault and rape of female prisoners

Well yes and also no. There are 68,000 reported incidence of sexual violence against women every year….so I rather think our time might be better spent on the men identifying as men. But yes, specific treatment for trans women with a penis is undoubtedly a good thing. Separate wing in a female prison given there’s not many of them.

No - not sure how you stretched that far

No. Separate wing in a male prison. As they are male.

You think that rapists are evil but should still be placed in female rather than male prisons. Why are you more concerned about the evil male rapists than you are about the female prisoners

Sorry to be pedantic, but they have changed the legislation in Scotland so that a transman is theoretically able to be prosecuted for rape using a neophallus.

Because you are more concerned about being nice to trans identified rapists than you are about the safety of female prisoners

This is currently the solution in Scotland for many transwomen prisoners. Its a special wing for sex offenders, I believe, in Edinburgh. Those that aren't in womens prisons.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that change in law

Female estates are small and most are low security, too low security for these types of men. They should never be in the female estate. If they must be separated from other men then it needs to be in the male estate.

Many former female prisoners and prison employees have spoken up about how there is no way to keep women separated and safe 24/7 from men who are placed in the female estate. Even if cells were separate all the other communal facilities prisoners use can't be segregated for sex and we know that dangerous men are not only dangerous when the sun goes down.

I’m not. As I’ve said many many times - I’m more concerned with men than I am with trans women. There are some fairly violent and evil women in women’s prisons too.

It was lovely debating with you all. I’m off to cook dinner now….always fascinating to see things from other peoples perspectives, no matter how miles apart they are from my own.

I never said it was fine but where are the prosecutions? Who is taking the pictures and not reporting it?
If I see filth I would be insisting on a police attendance.

@RetiringRita I just wanted to post to support your view point. I've been told to "shush" by women on a feminist board because I dared to hold your point of view.

I'm sure you knew how this thread would go. But good on you for insisting on holding your own opinion.

Thank you for repeatedly posting this: in a fast-moving thread it's genuinely helpful.

Firstly, we only insist on this where the law requires men and women to be treated differently. I for one am happy to treat TW as women in any other context, such as social.

In law, the default is equal treatment of the sexes, unless their different physiologies give rise to a need to be treated differently as set out in S158/9 and Schedules 3 and 16 (plus provisions relating to pregnancy).

People with a female sex marker on their original birth registration are physiologically different from people with a male sex marker (including, as you point out, TW).

Therefore, TW lose nothing by being treated as men in those limited circumstances.

If you insist that trans people must be treated according to their acquired gender in all aspects of public life governed by equality law, then you are erasing the protected characteristics of sex, sexual orientation, and pregnancy. In other words, removing the sex-based rights of men and women, the Sch16 rights of gay men and lesbians, and the pregnancy rights of transmen.

Given that trans people also enjoy all of the above rights, plus protection from gender reassignment discrimination, is this a smart move?

Supreme Court says not.