Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

So women have to be brutalised by men in order to justify keeping men out of women's spaces. Otherwise it's fine to let them in, is it?

Surely prevention is better. We don't know which ones are awful. But we do know they're all men.

There's provisions in the Equality Act that allow transmen to be excluded from female single sex spaces but there are no provisions that allow for transwomen to be included in female single sex spaces

So I’m not a trans activist by any stretch of the imagination. But I might have a go at answering your question if that’s ok? I don’t see trans women as men…and neither do they. If safety is the true concern, it should be addressed through better protections against actual predators - regardless of gender - not through the exclusion of an already vulnerable group.
However, I can see the issues that the judge had with his ruling. And I can see how certain situations are problematic. I personally wouldn’t be ok with anyone still possessing a penis being in a prison with women or giving care to a woman who wanted a female practitioner. There are other problematic situations too so I can see the position from both sides and how some would say it has to be binary or that it’s too complicated.
But what we’ve done is to shift the vulnerability somewhere else. Without really focusing on the real problem…which is that some people who were born men are violent predators….with an infinitesimally small number of those being trans women

That makes no sense at all. A person calling themelves a "trans woman" is a man petending to be a woman. No amount of playing around with words is ever going to change reality.

Luckily enough, the EQA 2010 states some examples as to which services and spaces meet that criteria!

The examples given are -

• a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;
• a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;
• a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;
• separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;
• separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;
• a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

And this also -

• group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

From here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

So all good, yes?

Are there any specific rape crisis centres for 'cis' women?

Do you mean 'females'? Of which I only know of one which is Beira's place and which would not turn away 'trans men' AKA women.

Most other rape crisis centres include men who say they are women.

What about the other people, the ones that are neither male or female that you mentioned in the other thread? Which rape crisis centres would they use? Is there a name for this third sex?

I don’t see trans women as men…and neither do they

How do you know this and what about when they do things that only men can do, like rape?

Yep, amused at posters citing their filter bubble as evidence that people agree with them.

Nope general toilets are not proportionate and legitimate imv.

So some men are women, even though they were born male, they are actually female (but there is no way to prove this), yet women can’t be the same type of women as these men as they were born female. And we should treat these particular men as women in all circumstances or they’ll disappear.

Thats my take from the opposing argument.

Men and women should only be treated differently when sex matters - that does not erase trans people from public life in any way - if trans people feel that being treated in the same way as their birth sex then they should be campaigning for their own third space/categories in these situations- and most would absolutely support that.

What about trans women who are violent predators/offenders? How do you explain them?

With all due respect as I do believe you are answering in good faith (and it makes a refreshing change), it doesn’t matter that you don’t view them as men. They ARE men. They may not see themself as such, I certainly don’t feel in any way 43 years of age, but I am, and no amount of presenting stereotypically in another way will change that.

It's always considered a legitimate aim to separate the sexes in situations when people are in a state of undress so single sex toilets and changing rooms would always be allowed as being a proportional response to a legitimate aim

General toilets are proportionate and legitimate, or there wouldn’t be single sex toilets at all. Things have changed: the Supreme Court is very clear that “trans women” are men under the Equality Act. So female only toilets don’t include them.

Some of the comments are very 2024, or even 2018.

Well the clue is in the name. If you call yourself a trans woman you clearly don’t see yourself as a man. Or you’d call yourself something else. A rapist to me is just an evil adult human.

Not a bad summary I think 👏

Rapists are men. That’s the law. It’s possible for a woman to commit rape as a joint enterprise with a man, but a penis is required.

A majority view in a specific period of time does not inherently make something right or wrong.

And just to clarify, that’s in England/Wales and Scotland, I know there are differences in other countries.

well that depends. What kind of compassion do you want? Do you mean.. women budge up and let males in their spaces or do you mean just generalised compassion?

So you can see why people have been campaigning to get them out of womens prisons. And for that they are called hateful

You didn’t understand my point. The Supreme Court has ruled. It isn’t debatable that trans women are men under the keystone piece of Equality legislation in the UK.

No. I got no compassion for men who think they're women and want to be in our spaces.

None. I don't wish them harm. I don't think they even need compassion.

Very few people would oppose third spaces but the need to be considered their chosen sex outweighs the desire to avoid the men’s provision. That infringes on the rights of women.

If TRA went for TWATW rather than the hardline TWAW then they wouldn’t be suffering the major backlash that is happening now. Trans people were living peaceful lives before the TRA got involved and turned things as a financial, medical, emotional and social scam.