Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

That doesn't mean they should be locked up with stronger and more violent men. This falls under cruel and unusual punishments which usually, quite rightly, is frowned upon by our legal system. You wouldn't lock a male prisoner up with a bear no matter what crime he had committed.

It's incredible to me that locking up dangerous, criminal men with women was sanctioned in this country and for such a long time, it's still happening in other so called progressive countries. It says a lot about how women are still not considered fully human from a human rights angle.

So even though you don't think the male rapists are fully transitioned transwomen you still think they should be in female prisons.

Do you think the female prisoners must be bad women to be in prison so it doesn't matter if we put rapists with them

What happens when protesters hold up posters saying 'decapitate terfs' -

https://news.stv.tv/west-central/police-scotland-makes-no-arrests-after-probe-into-decapitation-sign-at-gender-rally-in-glasgow

Thank you. I knew exactly how it would go and I wanted my MP and mumsnet to see it
The AIBU has been pretty consistent but may change when the wine comes out!

Agree with you entirely.
No men in women's sport (and I say that as a former England record holder).
No sharing of female spaces.
Two sexes only. That's my cards on the table.
I also agree this is a male movement. If you talk to ftm their friendship group will be mainly males.
My issue is the venom and stereotypes.
I grew up with old school transsexuals. I think you'll find this violence against women is not in their name.

I agree completely with all of this Op, knowing as I do 2 old school transsexuals (living happy lives, no activism etc). Anyone who would behave venomously towards them is a twat. The issue is the activists.

Well it’s going the way it always goes. A few ‘you’re all hateful vitriolic bigots! I can’t say how or why or provide any evidence but you are!’.

Wash rinse repeat.

But you still haven't given any examples of "hate speech" against TW, nor have you bothered to reply to any of my POLITE questions!

That's a weird take. Why do you feel it is wrong to have social recognition and protection for people with female sex markers?

Having female sex markers (real ones that have always been part of you fir good or bad and have been part of how people have perceived you your whole life for good or bad) has a significant impact on how one is treated within society.

I think it's important that marginalised groups can define themselves and are free to speak out their experiences to understandwhat happens to them, why it happens to them and who does it to them.

Female people have existed in all of humanity's history, in almost every culture including our own have been constrained, devalued and exploited, often sexually.

Why would you not want the right to be recognised as existing in a socially amd legally meaningful way for female people?

I am a trans ally, absolutely. I have no problem sharing my space with trans women and I don't believe they are in anyway threatening to me. The most risk I have ever been in is from cis gendered heterosexual men who know they don't need to pretend to be a woman to get into my space. The idea that someone would pretend to be a woman to threaten women is ridiculous and statistically unlikely. I genuinely don't understand the hate at all. I am mystified by it.

Must female prisons are full of shoplifters and drug mules although I have sat in front of baby Ps mother. You would be scared by that!
No rapists but there are paedophiles.
We also still lock up prostitutes if they are running brothels.

Female prisons are not allocated on the severity of crimes. The usually try to put prisoners near to home locations for child visits.

So you don’t think someone can be problematic, if they are trans?

If any male person, no matter how he identifies, uses female spaces then he is a predator, end of.

Anyone pushing or validating any sort of trans identity onto autistic/neglected/abused/mentally ill children who are vulnerable to online grooming is condoning irreversible changes to a child at a time when they cannot fully understand the consequences.

Anyone going along with this, or getting angry with the women who have bravely stood up against this, is indeed a Hand Maiden, a Trans Ally, Not part of the sisterhood, Delusional, Captured, Shameful, a liar, and above all a fool.

It’s so very obvious that gender is the problem, not the solution. Abolish gender and we can go back to people being the sex they are but wearing whatever they want. It’s honestly embarrassing that people think gender is genuine.

Do you understand that many women don’t want to undress or be in a vulnerable position with men?

You do not get to decide, on behalf of other women, who is permitted to enter their safe, private spaces.

You might be okay with men being in your changing room/public lavatory.

That doesn't mean that other women have to endure such a violation.

But pretty much all posters on the GC side agree with this.
The anger / distrust is focused on the TW who ignore these limits and insist on using these spaces too.
Old fashioned transsexuals have been thrown under the bus by the TRAs. But that isn't the fault of women just trying to maintain boundaries.

Likewise. I’m proud to stand up for women and girls and not be taken in by faddish social movements demanding other people’s rights.

Why does anyone?

What's that got to do with whether men should be put in womens Prisons or why female prisoners should be subjected to the risk of rape. Even horrible criminal women should be protected from rape.

Did you miss the news reports about Isla Bryson, the convicted rapist, who would have been sent to a women's prison if women hadn't spoken up and complained.

If you missed that you might have also missed the fact that Bryson enrolled on a female only beauticians course in the period between committing rape and being convicted. As part of this course the trainees practice on each other when the young girls complained about being uncomfortable with an intact man on the course they were told they were the problem and were bigots.

@RetiringRita
What is your definition of "trans hate" or "trans haters"?

From what I can see your beliefs on this are 90% the same as everyone else on here.

Your main complaint seem to be in generalisations, which you are also guilty of making, and that you refuse to see that some trans women are not nice people, they are rapists, abusers etc.
And yes some do attack women in toilets. (in this country and in the US).

I would also like to know if you were this vocal whilst women at LWS were being punched, covered in soup and being shouted and spat at by trans people and their allies. And yes one did shout in the face of a child in a pram.

Thank you for clarifying that it is purely 'in your view'.

Because surely, you do understand and respect that other people have a different view. And that YOUR view doesn't over ride the consent of people who need their single sex spaces to remain single sex.

Thank you for clarifying.

So, then, you understand that your position is your position and that no longer can you use shaming tactics as you have in the past over a few years to shame those who don't agree with you.

This is surely making progress.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here @JaneEyre40 .Are you mocking women who might be scared by men in a single sex space? Maybe because they've a history of violence from men. But we're supposed to accept trans-identified mens alleged fears of being in male toilets as if that is some holy sacrament.

If you insist that trans people must be treated according to their acquired gender in all aspects of public life governed by equality law, then you are erasing the protected characteristics of [birth] sex.

I agree with this . I actually don’t think we should have a situation where birth trans and cis women can never be treated separately for the purposes of equalities law, nor should we have a situation where they always must be treated separately wherever services/ facilities are divided by sex which is what the EHRC is trying to do. Both are forms of erasure and wholly unreasonable .

So you’re ignoring the fact that TW commit sexual crimes against st women at a rate higher than other men?
You’re ignoring the regular cases of TW committing these crimes? https://transcrimeuk.com/]]" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://transcrimeuk.com/]]]]

You’re ignoring the hate and threats of violence that women face on a daily basis from TRAs? https://terfisaslur.com/]]" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://terfisaslur.com/]]]]

Now I don’t know about you, but I prefer to have as many information and facts before I have an opinion. There are too many lies around how safe TW are, it’s like putting on a dress somehow takes away the male patterns of violence, when it doesn’t. And the thing is, when you ignore all of the facts and still spout nonsense all you’re doing is hurting women and children, and centring the needs of men.

I’d also add “the likelihood that a man would put in the years of work to become a priest/teacher/scout leader to have access to vulnerable children is ridiculous”, which makes your statement about a man dressing up to do the same a bit silly. Men go to great lengths to get what they want, and for so many men if they can hurt women in the way, all the better for them.

And ... if a separate male and female changing room, then also a toilet. Because toilets are also used by some people to be areas for changing and being in a state of undress.

A fact that is all too often ignored by people who have the privilege to never have needed a toilet provision for that purpose.

Pimps run brothels and are in prison for selling the bodies of others.

Prostitution (as in selling ones own body) is itself legal in the UK but you should know that.

And what has any of that got to do with trying to justify a policy of allowing males to be housed in Womens Prisons?