Friends really annoying trait!

[Gallivanterer]

Ive been friends with her for over a decade now and I love her. We're very close. But shes got this one really irritating trait, and I really want to either find a way of bringing it up with her or learning ways of dealing with it. The reason its coming to a head is we are planning a holiday together next year (first time we've been away together).

I cant even summarise this character trait as its so nebulous but let me give you some examples.

• Going to an island for our holiday and I mentioned as well as sea and cultural stuff there would be opportunities to split up and eg could go on some hikes, head to the mountains, etc. She did me a 2 min VM in which she basically reiterated "I mean for me, going here is about the sea, its going to be sea focused for me" over and over again. I was thinking... Yes... I get that, hence why we are going to an island 😅
• Again for the trip, we both do a lot of trusted housesitters, so I suggested nearer the time we could do a mix of accommodation options including trusted housesitters and she said "nope. It'll be a hassle, I want this to be about relaxation".
• I spent years suggesting a particular career change for her that was really in line with her skills and profile, she would always do these really lengthy VMs explaining why my idea was a bad one. Until 6 months ago when she suddenly had this epiphany that this would be a great option for her.

There are countless other examples but I dont want to bore you! I cant put my finger on it, its not about what shes saying its about her tone: she can have a very kind of categoric/dismissive tone on subjects i think should just be relaxed conversations where we're batting ideas back and forth. Its almost like a kind of know it all vibe in which shes kind of dismissing/shutting down debate and I find it really grating.

Ive been meaning to try and find a way of handling this or talking to her about it, but going on holiday has made me think I really need to do it now as we are right at the start of planning so id like to nip it in the bud!

Has anyone got experience with this kind of trait?

It sounds to me like you’re similar to her and go on about things too. Why are you suggesting a career to someone for year? Mention it once and then it’s up to them what they do with that info. Maybe 6 months ago was the only time that was right for her to consider it?

What’s the issue with her not wanting to house sit? Isn’t that fair enough?

I also think the sea thing is for enough, sounds like you had your time for a monologue about going on hikes etc and she responded.

She knows her mind and doesn't want to consider your suggestions.

You sound a bit like my mum. Giving suggestions and unsolicited advice that people don't want and didn't ask for, and then getting moody when they're shot down.

Maybe you're not as bad as my mum for it... But if you are, it's entirely understandable that your friend has "a tone" with you. If it's something you do often, and overstep, she probably feels she has to strongly assert her boundaries to shut you down and get you to stop. Maybe she's learned if she gives an inch and feigns the slightest bit of interest in your suggestions for the sake of "politeness and conversation", you'll run with it and go off on one when it isn't welcome. That's what my mum does with people.

People generally don't want to debate with friends. That's weird.

All the examples you gave are ones which involves what she wants to do... And you telling her what she should want to do, or should do. You're trying to tell her to do other things... Go on hikes, stay in certain accommodation, leave her job. She's just asserting no, she doesn't want to do those things (and with the job, she is allowed to change her mind later - that doesn't mean the boundary she asserted previously is invalid).

Be careful you're not actually being really dictating towards her, this may explain why she takes such a strong tone in response to your behaviour.

First post has it! Also re Its almost like a kind of know it all vibe in which shes kind of dismissing/shutting down debate and I find it really grating.
Do you actually mean 'debate' or a conversation just? I can't imagine many want an actual 'debate' when trying to plan a relaxing holiday, and especially not in relation to their career choices! It seems like you have an idea how you think things should be done/run and you're a bit pissed off that she's not agreeing and doing what you suggest?

Is the holiday actually going to be enjoyable for you? It seems you want different things and maybe ‘parallel’ holidays would work better?

You sound irritating.

Hmm yeah..if anyone should be doing the AIBU about irritating traits it should be your friend doing it about you.

She doesn’t sound anymore annoying than you, sounds like a mild personality clash at worst.

It sounds a bit like you're both a bit rigid or controlling (I don't mean this in a bad way) Often in relationships (friendship or romance) they'll be one person in charge and one easy going. But that's not the case here.

Sounds like both of you think you are in charge, you have the patience or headspace to be up for a debate about a choice or issue. She doesn't. She's pushing back because she doesn't want to be dictated to

You say X is a good idea,
she says no, she wants to do Y
You want a conversation about the relative merits of X or Y
She wants you to stop imposing your thoughts on her and shuts down the conversation (or feels like she needs to defend her choice in an OTT way via voicenotes), because she's happy with her choice

It's not a her problem. It's both of you

I can’t quite see what the problem is from the examples you have given.

Because she asked me! For years she would periodically make these really long VMs asking for advice and going through her different thoughts on different careers.
So then I would reply, giving her my thoughts as asked, and she would respond with really length shutdowns of why they wouldn't be a good idea.
Its infuriating!!

Ask her not to leave you voice notes?

I appreciate what youre saying, but im not dictating anything! Its a pattern with us. Every single small thing she has to pick up on and make some kind of counter point. Like me mentioning i would maybe go and do some mountain hikes on days we split up -> in response I get a long message about how this is all about the sea and you won't catch her venturing inland. I mean, okay? I never said YOU should go to the mountains? 😅 Its exhausting! She can never just be like "sounds good" or whatever - even when things dont concern her directly its like she has to give her opinion or make a value judgment on them

It’s a bit difficult asking someone to change behaviour unless you can be specific about what it is, how it affects you and what you would like them to do instead.

The actual impact on you isn’t clear from your post beyond mild irritation. It’s just going to come across that you don’t like her if that’s the case.

The voice notes would be the annoying thing for me whatever she was saying in them - hate them, never listen to them.
The rest doesn't seem so bad. I have a friend who never ever accepts any of my recommendations for TV shows, books etc but will jump on other people's, or suddenly love something I recommended 10 years ago when someone else recommends it, I don't really mind because I love her!

I don’t think this holiday is going to work your just going to annoy each other

So she’s actually having discussions with you and you just want her to shut up and say ‘sounds good’. So you can explain you want to see mountains but she can’t explain she wants to see the sea…. The updates paint you as more annoying than her

She has often talked about how growing up her mum was hyper critical. The best way i can describe it is that she often seems to take suggestions like theyre challenges. Like every idea or opinion is somehow her being asked to defend a stance when thats absolutely not what's happening.
Last week I was selling my bike, and i was in this lengthy back and forth with a woman on FB who kept changing the date and time she wanted to come around (she changed it 4 times). After the fourth time I didn't respond to her new suggestion as I had her down as a time waster.
My friend asked whether I'd sold the bike so I told her about the woman and said "anyway, she has my address so I'll leave her to it, she might just come knocking".
Friend then launched into a really patronising missive along the lines of "who would do that? 😆 Nobody is just going to randomly come around to your house without you saying okay? 🤣"

Its the same kind of thing. Its so fucking annoying!

Oh ok, so she's seeing criticism when it's not there and unnecessarily defending her choices.
If you say you're going hiking on a day you're not together, and she'd prefer to paddle in the sea, she's hearing a judgement of her choice from you (that isn't there?). Is she insecure? Does she compare herself with you? Does she think you're more successful? Or think she's lazier than you?

Yes thats exactly it. Because of how her mum was (and still is) with her, she jumps into this defensive mode and it makes simple conversations a bit of a chore.
In a normal world (according to me!) you would just be like "hiking sounds good, im going to stick to the beaches!". Not launch into a massive defence of your decision to go to the beach!

Why on earth are you going on holiday with her?
She's a deeply annoying person.
I actually know someone like that, not a friend of any sort.
Whatever point someone makes to her about anything, on any subject, she has an opposite point of few. Not aggressive in any way, just an opposing view point.
She has a mildly lecturing, superior wisdom, type of tone, complete pain in the arse stuff.

I avoid her like the plague.
The holiday is a huge mistake.

She has often talked about how growing up her mum was hyper critical

Ahh, that's why then. You are her mum in the transference.
There's absolutely nothing you can do about it. She could have therapy if she wanted to. But she can't help it right now.

Thats exactly it! There has to be a counter argument to EVERYTHING!!!!

You might show her a pair of shoes youre thinking of buying and it will turn into a big thing about how and why shes not wearing heels anymore.
She might ask for your opinion on a dress, you give it, and then she'll go on a vaguely condescending talk about how thats not a good idea for her.

Its like why does everything have to be a big debate about your fundamental essence as a person?

This holiday is a terrible idea. You are going to end up so annoyed and hurt by each other during ever interaction about deciding where to go for dinner and even how and when to get to the airport in the first place that your friendship will be irretrievably broken.

Well that’s going to be a fun holiday !
It sounds like you both rub each other up the wrong way with your current dynamics.
I don’t think saying something directly addressing the behaviour is going to do any good. As you say, it’s a bit of a nebulous complaint and would be hard for her to act on in the moment. So few things that may help - could you try humour when she goes all pedantic on you, make a joke about her being a mermaid or something if she drones on about the sea. Rubbish example but it’s really about prompting her to think about what she is saying.
Another thought is tell her you are no longer listening to voice notes, and get her to repeat whatever it is she said. It’s easy to rant with no response. Harder in a conversation.
I would suggest both of you read Let Them by Mel Robbins, it may help you to understand why you feel obligated to offer advice and why she doesn’t take it.

But really if you value this friendship, I would suggest not going on this trip, or at least breaking it into solo segments. It’s really hard work spending 24/7 with one other person and if there are already cracks in the relationship, it’s going to kill your friendship dead.

Thanks for the recommendation!

So do you think it would be a bad idea to address it directly then? I guess its hard to do because it is so nebulous. Like the bike/FB thing for example. What could I have said in response to that, that would be gentle but also make the point?