Friends really annoying trait!

[Gallivanterer]

Ive been friends with her for over a decade now and I love her. We're very close. But shes got this one really irritating trait, and I really want to either find a way of bringing it up with her or learning ways of dealing with it. The reason its coming to a head is we are planning a holiday together next year (first time we've been away together).

I cant even summarise this character trait as its so nebulous but let me give you some examples.

• Going to an island for our holiday and I mentioned as well as sea and cultural stuff there would be opportunities to split up and eg could go on some hikes, head to the mountains, etc. She did me a 2 min VM in which she basically reiterated "I mean for me, going here is about the sea, its going to be sea focused for me" over and over again. I was thinking... Yes... I get that, hence why we are going to an island 😅
• Again for the trip, we both do a lot of trusted housesitters, so I suggested nearer the time we could do a mix of accommodation options including trusted housesitters and she said "nope. It'll be a hassle, I want this to be about relaxation".
• I spent years suggesting a particular career change for her that was really in line with her skills and profile, she would always do these really lengthy VMs explaining why my idea was a bad one. Until 6 months ago when she suddenly had this epiphany that this would be a great option for her.

There are countless other examples but I dont want to bore you! I cant put my finger on it, its not about what shes saying its about her tone: she can have a very kind of categoric/dismissive tone on subjects i think should just be relaxed conversations where we're batting ideas back and forth. Its almost like a kind of know it all vibe in which shes kind of dismissing/shutting down debate and I find it really grating.

Ive been meaning to try and find a way of handling this or talking to her about it, but going on holiday has made me think I really need to do it now as we are right at the start of planning so id like to nip it in the bud!

Has anyone got experience with this kind of trait?

I do have some sympathy. I have a couple of friends who will just say 'Well, no because xyz' about stuff that isn't black and white like that. Or say we've planned a trip, will just say we have to take x train and won't explain if you ask you are just expected to follow along. And then are occasionally wrong but won't listen! Just won't engage. It's like a sort of grey rock with speaking.

Or not even the 'because xyz'. Just no.

The more examples you're giving the more she sounds like my DH. And yes it's exhausting.
For my DH it's a combination of a hyper critical parent always putting him down, and I believe undiagnosed autism.
He is a self confessed pendant, and gets anxious easily if the facts are not correct in any way.

He does a lot of external processing, which I believe your friend is doing with the long vns.

Everything is up for discussion, and his goal seems to be to ensure "correctness" and show he knows, he's not stupid, as if anything I've said is taken as a criticism.

It's so exhausting and taken me years to realise and recognise.

I believe with my DH the underlying drive is anxiety, he can't cope with change which includes potential change to how he's perceived.

Ok how about a different tack. Just respond “You could be right” to everything she says. The issue here is neither of you are wrong, you just do things differently. So maybe just try acknowledging her in a slightly brush off way, if she sees what you are doing and calls you out “Friend, it’s exhausting debating everything I do. We see the world differently so I am just acknowledging that there are two different ways of viewing things.”

Interesting. Talking about it on MN is helping me drill down to the nub of the issue.
Its like she positions herself as thr authority.... On EVERYTHING. So for example with the FB bike thing, shes positioning herself as the authority kn human behaviour (the woman actually did come knocking!).
I think she sees herself as "the pragmatic one" so there's often this undertone of "oh honey, let me tell you how things work".

I sound like i really dislike her - I dont! She's a great, funny, supportive friend. I just wish she could lose the attitude sometimes. Its like she cant do brainstorming, to her any kind of collaboration is basically an opportunity to show authority

If you want to address it directly, don't take an individual example because it sounds petty. Say something more like

Kate, You've said before that your mum is and always has been hyper critical of you. I've noticed how much of an impact this has had on you. When we talk, you have a tendency to see criticism where it isn't meant, or that you feel the need to defend your choices. I love you. I'm not your mum and I'm not criticising or judging you. You don't need to justify anything to me.

She how that goes down, then in the future you could try following up when she launches into defensive mode about a specific thing with a quick "Kate, it's ok I'm not your mum"

Just don't listen to the voice messages. My friend sends them, I never listen. Just pop a note back saying what's up it's much harder to type a long spiel. There might be a three minute voice note that translates to are you free Saturday for lunch when you get to the crux of it.

Definitely stop listening to her VM's, screw that.
The holiday will likely kill the friendship dead as you will stop wanting to engage at all.
If you insist on going, bring reading material and make plans to be on your own for part of every day.
When someone irritates you like that you can't unsee it, such is the tedium.

It is her way of communication and it is unlikely to change.
Don't say anything as she won't hear it.

However, if she starts on you, you could hold up your hand and say "can this not be a lecture please!".

I think you need to stop giving her airtime.

Start with no longer listening to her VMs.

This is great!!! I am saving it to my notes. Im going to try this.

Why are you going on holiday with someone when you find simple conversations with them ‘a bit of a chore’? Maybe you just aren’t compatible enough to go on holiday together.

Don't go on holiday with her It sounds like it'll be the end of the friendship.

To the hike thing I would reply saying sorry I meant would you mind if I went on the odd hike while you do your own thing. I think the accommodation thing is totally reasonable from her end. She is probably getting frustrated as she thinks she has made it clear that she wants a relaxing holiday and you keep suggesting things that are stressing her out.

What’s a VM?

Maybe she is just pissed off with all your “suggestions”

I think you both sound like you've got strong opinions on everything and that why she irritates you.

(the long voice mails would be really annoying though)

The holiday is probably not going to resolve the communication issues between you...
We note the annoying traits of others because we know how it makes us feel; even if it's difficult to articulate.
The thing is, to some people, we ourselves are that annoying person.
How this works out on holiday with a more prolonged contact and the stress of travel remains to be seen.
The trait you mention in your friend about becoming defensive to your viewpoint, you could try, 'do you find different opinions to yours a challenge/ threat?'
I find that asking questions allows the other person to explore their reactions rather than me imposing what I think upon it.
That said, it's always a good leveller to acknowledge how we ourselves are annoying too. We just don't see that bit in us so clearly.

It does sound like you want to write her lines for her to respond as you wish, like she’s some character you’re in control of. She’s not that person and she can say what she feels just as you do. No doubt you get on her wires too. I wouldn’t be going on holiday with each other. You’re going to be wound up and on edge.

Might work but also a risky can of worms to open, if she counters with the things that the OP does that irritate her. It’s a way to nix the holiday before it begins I guess.

Also consider whether she really wants advice or if she just likes a grumble. I know someone who would come to me with problems, but any suggested solutions were just batted away. The most frustrating bit was that by not considering any advice, the problem would stay and she would keep grumbling to me about it. I would get irritated by it, but eventually just went for the “um, yes, oh dear what a pity never mind” response and change the subject. It can help.

I don't like being told what to do. I wouldn't bend and accept everything you said either, even if you're correct! Maybe you should suggest things rather than telling her what she should do?

Given that you can't even define her "really annoying trait" on here and have given the most nebulous, seemingly unconnected examples I can't imagine it would go better in real life and she'll just come away with the impression you find her annoying in general, possibly something to do with the length of her voice notes?

It boils down to this: you rub each other up the wrong way - on a very fundamental level you two simply don’t gel.

Don’t go on holiday with her. Stick to easy get- togethers if you want to keep her as a friend.

But maybe there is some truth in what a PP said about “Giving suggestions and unsolicited advice that people don't want and didn't ask for, and then getting moody when they're shot down”….. If so, consider modifying your approach to these kinds of interactions.

Respond to her VNs with “you could be right” or similar, or not at all. If they irritate you too much, tell her to text/message/WhatsApp rather than leave voicemails. Tell her your VM isn’t working properly if it helps.

But don’t go on holiday with her.

I think she is a person who thinks out loud. She doesn't want solutions. Leave your smart ideas to yourself she doesn't really want them. Switch off when you listen to her verbal diarrhea voice-mails.

I know someone a bit like this. She has queen bee vibes. We were good friends but drifted and it's only as the years went on I realise how it grated on me. I could suggest a book, and mention it's set during X and she might say 'that sounds boring' or I wouldn't like that. End of discussion. The strange thing is I noticed she has the opposite reaction to some people and would agree with everything they say. So T suggests the same book and my pal would say 'sounds interesting, thanks for the recommendation'. I think on some level there is a lack of confidence around some people but comfort with me if that makes sense.

You could try interrupting her as she starts to justify her choices and say X you're an adult - you really don't need to justify your choices to me.