Friends really annoying trait!

[Gallivanterer]

Ive been friends with her for over a decade now and I love her. We're very close. But shes got this one really irritating trait, and I really want to either find a way of bringing it up with her or learning ways of dealing with it. The reason its coming to a head is we are planning a holiday together next year (first time we've been away together).

I cant even summarise this character trait as its so nebulous but let me give you some examples.

• Going to an island for our holiday and I mentioned as well as sea and cultural stuff there would be opportunities to split up and eg could go on some hikes, head to the mountains, etc. She did me a 2 min VM in which she basically reiterated "I mean for me, going here is about the sea, its going to be sea focused for me" over and over again. I was thinking... Yes... I get that, hence why we are going to an island 😅
• Again for the trip, we both do a lot of trusted housesitters, so I suggested nearer the time we could do a mix of accommodation options including trusted housesitters and she said "nope. It'll be a hassle, I want this to be about relaxation".
• I spent years suggesting a particular career change for her that was really in line with her skills and profile, she would always do these really lengthy VMs explaining why my idea was a bad one. Until 6 months ago when she suddenly had this epiphany that this would be a great option for her.

There are countless other examples but I dont want to bore you! I cant put my finger on it, its not about what shes saying its about her tone: she can have a very kind of categoric/dismissive tone on subjects i think should just be relaxed conversations where we're batting ideas back and forth. Its almost like a kind of know it all vibe in which shes kind of dismissing/shutting down debate and I find it really grating.

Ive been meaning to try and find a way of handling this or talking to her about it, but going on holiday has made me think I really need to do it now as we are right at the start of planning so id like to nip it in the bud!

Has anyone got experience with this kind of trait?

I get it.. it sounds like its your friend's way or the highway...

If she's annoying you this much now.. what on earth will it be like when you are stuck together on holiday?

I guarantee you will end up falling out over this.

As for the career thing. Its a good example. But let it go.

Go on holiday with someone who actually has a bit of give and take and wants to do roughly the same things. Or if you like hiking go on one of those specialist hiking holidays - you may make new friends with the same interests.

Also: each time she asks you for an opinion, and she counter argues, you could ask yourself, and her, if appropriate, "is this something we need to agree on right now?"

You sound quite bossy and forthright with your opinions too, OP.

Maybe you butt heads because you're so similar?

I know a few people like this.

I think she's low on 'agreeableness'. One of the main 5 personality traits. www.scienceofpeople.com/personality/

It means her first reaction to anything and everything is usually negative - that would never work; that's not for me; I don't like that.

But like other posters have mentioned with examples, it's sometimes an automatic reaction and she may well say the opposite tomorrow/next week once the idea has percolated.

Don't really have any suggestions, but knowing it's not personal can help. Have also done exercises to assess the 5 personality traits with friends/colleagues and we're able to have a laugh about our various traits. Someone I know who is very low in agreeableness is very aware of it, and he can laugh about it. And reassure you it's not personal!

She’s a “yes but” person, wants the attention but not really the input. That’s narcissism. You’re buying into it by giving her attention, which she enjoys. But you’re taking her literally thinking she wants help. She doesn’t want help. She wants attention. You need to shift to “ yes dear” mode, disinvest a bit .

It sound like you have a habit of making unwanted and impractical suggestions, your trait is the annoying one. Just because you come up with an idea doesn't mean you can force it on others, they are allowed to draw lines and its not 'argumentative' if just not giving into your every whim at their own expense.

If someone kept battering me over the head with why they thought I should change my career I would quite firmly tell them to fuck off and mind their own business.

Why on earth would ANYONE want to go on holiday and constantly pack and unpack to WORK in different people houses, utterly stupid idea unless your broke backpacking kids.

The first one could go either way, if you want to go on a hike alone while she relaxes on the beach thats fine but from other context clues I imagine she predicted that actually you'll blather on at her until she gives into going so she is painting a very clear firm line with you as frankly you don't seem to take hints very well (as shown by the harassing her for YEARS about he job thing).

'put up with this behaviour' - like, someone saying they'd rather stay in one hotel and relax rather than move between various housesitting places on a holiday? It's hardly grounds for an psychoanalytic intervention. Some other people's examples and situations sound a lot worse, but OP's were vague and mild and mostly amount to a personality mis-match. That doesn't mean this friend should, can or will change just because OP points out it stems from childhood conditioning. This who her friend is, just as OP is a product of her upbringing and environment. As a PP said, we all have our irritating sides and tend to either let it slide with friends as they put up with us too, or if it's too much, then step back. They're not married, they don't need to change themselves to make this work.

It doesn't sound like PDA to me at all, much more what another PP said - that the friend is thinking out loud so her conversations don't always go the way the OP wants them to. Bringing her mother up isn't going to fix anything. Do you think she's gonna go: 'You're so right! I'm a pain in the ass to all my friends so I won't do that any more. Instead I'll say what OP wants me to because I totally know what she's wanting me to say and am simply not saying it on purpose to be a pain in the ass. Thank goodness she's told me so I can change myself.'

She knows what she wants and expects you to want the same, possibly doesn't even realise there are alternative view points. Be equally blunt back, 'for you it's all about the sea but I'm also going to enjoy the local culture and the scenery inland, we're not joined at the hip'. Not house sitting is definitely a two yeses or one no, so fair enough you're not doing that. The job thing is purely her business, it didn't suit her before it does now.

These are all different things entirely, not a character trait.

I think your suggestions stress her out. She has an idea of what is going to happen and the thought of a new plan overwhelms her so she immediately rejects it.

I personally don't think bringing up the fact that someone's mum was hypercritical of them is going to make them put their guard down.

If anything I think the obvious pathologising would make her put her defenses up.

Some people just process language differently.

I always explain my reasonings for things, I am a rigid thinker, sometimes people also suggest things that are stupid ideas thinking that they know best and I'm digging my heels in when in reality they're not good listeners and are suggesting more problems than solutions.

Simply decide if you want to be friends with this person or not, and stop trying to change the way she talks or thinks.

I've said this on a few threads, but the best advice my mum gave me for these situations was: You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friends nose.

You can't change how your friend talks, thinks, or does things but you can choose if you want to be around her.

This is brilliant! Kinda disgusting, but brilliant. Gonna remember that one.

Sounds like she has to have the last word.

You are being unreasonable. It sounds as though you’re quite controlling, and she is not allowing you to control her. Good for her.

This , absolutely! Sounds spot on

ND. Could she be? Running through options, long convoluted conversations, like a chaotic mind... ADHD? Anything else that might suggest this? I might be grabbing at straws of course!?

I agree with this.

The examples in the OP, it’s not unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and not to hop around house sitting but the OP has taken this as proof of her friend being wildly unreasonable!

Ditto with the example of the career choice - there could be lots of reasons why it wasn’t right until now. Rather than thinking “I made a great call all those years ago with my suggestion!” OP is strangely affronted that her friend is only considering the option now.

Those two examples reflect poorly on OP, not her friend.

And the very vigorous defence of exactly why she is definitely right and the friend is completely wrong, with no reflection at all on her own behaviour…..I don’t think things are as one-sided as OP would have us believe.

This holiday will be a disaster.

Interrupt early in … are you looking for support or suggestions?
or
are you venting?

if she asks why

you say, I’m asking so I know what support you are looking for from me - so I know if you want suggestions, or a friendly ear to complain to.

then you know what she wants.

Google narcissists…there are many different variations on the same beast! Trust me, once you know what to spot, it becomes very clear…I know because I have family members/friends who are, friends who married one and now no longer together…they’re fascinating creatures but the way their mind works is very interesting and the traits and behaviour are quite manipulative but once you know, you know…Dr Ramani I think is her name of YouTube channel, very enlightening…

Get back to me when you've read the full thread

Ye and this op is where you may be carrying some baggage - she thinks she is being criticised/ has to defend herself, do you think you have to come up with a solution? The “oh that sounds tough what are you going to do “ line is absolutely marvellous I find (I’ve a tendency to do this).

OMG yes, its so controlling to say I want to go to the mountains on holiday! I am OUT OF CONTROL!

Oh dear, this is tricky. IMO it comes down to whether or not you want to bring up the issue and make things potentially uncomfortable, considering how defensive she’ll be about it.

DD is the same. She wasn’t, but after a really bad bullying spell when starting high school, she became hyper defensive and hyper independent (which also makes her refuse counselling because she knows best). If she asks me for my opinion about something, she’ll debate it until my opinion matches hers. It can be mundane or serious, it will happen.

It made me stop enjoying outings with her, which is something I’m really distressed about because I don’t know how to tell her. I’m fairly easy going and I don’t want to be stressed or with someone on a permanent rant while on holidays or doing something nice.

But my DD is, well, my DD. I wouldn’t have this amount of goodwill and patience with anyone else.

How can you address it though? It's just her entire personality really isn't it?
You can't say you need a full overhaul of your attitude, beliefs and ways of communicating.

I do think it's odd to suggest a career for another person for ages. Then be annoyed they finally took your (initially clearly unwanted) advice.

Honestly just accept that you've probably both got foibles and you know what she's like. Either stay close friends or distance yourself. But I don't think you can change other people.

I’m more like your friend in this scenario and can’t really see what your issue is. Why are you telling her things if you don’t want her view?

I know I come across as defensive sometimes, but really I’m just explaining my thought process so we don’t go over things I’ve already considered and dismissed. I have a colleague who is very like me in this way and it’s very refreshing as we will often ring each other just to talk through a thought process (externally processing like someone else has said).

Why is she wrong to be clear she doesn’t want to go hiking (and why would she say sounds good, it doesn’t - it sounds horrendous to me). She obviously has previous reasons for not doing the career change, why was she wrong to tell you those reasons (presumably to stop you trying for years to convince her when she already had good reason for saying no or not now).

It is weird for someone just to turn up unannounced to buy a bike, why is it odd for her to comment on this?

But do not do the armchair psychologist thing and tell her you know it’s because of her mum and she doesn’t have to do it.

I do it because a lot of my identity is built around being clever and I also appreciate efficiency - so i want you to understand what I’ve already thought of to save rehashing, and a bit to prove I’ve thought of it before you raise it. If one of my friends psychoanalysed this and asked me to fundamentally change my personality and how I operate in the world, I’d probably cease to be friend with them.