Friends really annoying trait!

[Gallivanterer]

Ive been friends with her for over a decade now and I love her. We're very close. But shes got this one really irritating trait, and I really want to either find a way of bringing it up with her or learning ways of dealing with it. The reason its coming to a head is we are planning a holiday together next year (first time we've been away together).

I cant even summarise this character trait as its so nebulous but let me give you some examples.

• Going to an island for our holiday and I mentioned as well as sea and cultural stuff there would be opportunities to split up and eg could go on some hikes, head to the mountains, etc. She did me a 2 min VM in which she basically reiterated "I mean for me, going here is about the sea, its going to be sea focused for me" over and over again. I was thinking... Yes... I get that, hence why we are going to an island 😅
• Again for the trip, we both do a lot of trusted housesitters, so I suggested nearer the time we could do a mix of accommodation options including trusted housesitters and she said "nope. It'll be a hassle, I want this to be about relaxation".
• I spent years suggesting a particular career change for her that was really in line with her skills and profile, she would always do these really lengthy VMs explaining why my idea was a bad one. Until 6 months ago when she suddenly had this epiphany that this would be a great option for her.

There are countless other examples but I dont want to bore you! I cant put my finger on it, its not about what shes saying its about her tone: she can have a very kind of categoric/dismissive tone on subjects i think should just be relaxed conversations where we're batting ideas back and forth. Its almost like a kind of know it all vibe in which shes kind of dismissing/shutting down debate and I find it really grating.

Ive been meaning to try and find a way of handling this or talking to her about it, but going on holiday has made me think I really need to do it now as we are right at the start of planning so id like to nip it in the bud!

Has anyone got experience with this kind of trait?

I think you should follow the advice above on how to approach it in the first instance - I've noticed X but I do think you need to be more specific about what it is and how it affects you. Mention the town thing - you tried to offer advice and you feel like she switched to arguing black was white just because you agreed with her. Ask her if she has any suggestions on how she'd like you to engage with her - do suggestions frustrate her or make her anxious? Should you just empathise with her? Talking this through might help her understand what is happening in her that makes her behave like this and hopefully do it less. I do think you need to be clear as otherwise you will just piss her off. It sounds to me like she is herself being a bit hypercritical as well as defensive.

tbh I see this way of communicating a lot in TV shows and it really irritates me.

eg: Character who has seen a monster: 'Look, I saw a monster in the basement last week so I really don't think it's a good idea for you to go down there alone'

Character with counterargument (eg your mate): 'A monster, don't be silly, even though you are my mate and you are a monster hunter, I'm actually going to go down there for no good reason'.

OR even more annoying: Character - 'wait, listen to me, I think Chuck is really ill and has been infected by a poisoned spider bite'.
Your mate: No, that can't be right, there are no spiders in the jungle, even though you are a doctor and an explorer. I think Chuck looks just fine'
(Spoiler - Chuck dies).

Once you see it you can't unsee it and it's really bloody irritating.

So yeah, I say bin the holiday with your 'no but' pal.

Ah yes, people who self describe as being "very refreshing" - the close cousin to the "tell it like it is" contingent.
Interestingly I think you sound very similar to her as she also describes herself as clever and logical.
Its not weird for someone to just turn up for the bike, as evidenced by the fact that...someone turned up for the bike, as I assumed they would.
Why would you position yourself as knowing whether thats weird or not?

Your replies are getting pretty snippy and rude now, OP. Lots of people have given some thoughtful replies. You don't seem to have reflected much on them. I guess you'll go on holiday and get wound up and maybe it'll blow up and all be her fault because of her traits, not two people being not compatible for a holiday.

At first I was thinking she’s just responding to you / having a conversation.

But your further posts paint her as at perhaps at best contradictory / at worst argumentative. I think everyone’s known someone like that - and it is very annoying, but why be best friends with her for so long? It sounds as though you clash.

As you say, this is her fundamental essence, and I’m afraid you won’t change that.

I’d suggest if you do still go on holiday together then a lot of solo time might be the best thing!

It's really hard to tell what's going on with her. Could be loads of different things.

PDA

Low self esteem/fearfully protecting her autonomy (maybe a childhood hangup).

Selfish/bossy/dictatorial personality (you suggest things, she responds in a "my way or the highway " tone), though I doubt this is actually the issue or surely you wouldn't be friends.

Lacking in emotional intelligence/responding before considering other points of view. (My husband is like this because he assumes what is obviously preferable to him is also preferable to everyone; he does respond positively when called out though, he just doesn't think before opening his gob. )

Not able to process things internally, having to voice everything to an audience who aren't really meant to respond, just be a sounding board. (I'm a bit like that although I mainly talk to myself under my breath.)

Combination of any of those?

I think in the most part you can just ignore/shut down. So "I fancy hiking in the mountains alone". "Oh no I'm only interested in the beach". "That's great, I wasn't suggesting you come with me". I do think you are right to raise it though as some people might get offended at "being left alone " so you are managing expectations.

I do think she was a bit bossy about the accommodation - you are paying too! You only made suggestions and she pretty much said no we'll do what I want. I think in that scenario I would say "my budget for accommodation is £x, happy for you to look for options within that".

I can see this being your first and last holiday together!

I agree.

If it annoys you, just say ok then if she launches into a big explanation. And stop giving unsolicited advice because that is also annoying.

She sounds like a friend of mine who can be quite exhausting to be around ( we live very far apart which I think is the reason we are still friends). For example another child was mean to her son and I said I was sorry to hear that and that her son was a lovely boy who would never hurt anyone and she snapped at me that she knows her own son.

I think it’s a voice mail message left on a phone. I must admit I need to update my technology knowledge because I thought the friend was leaving video montages 😂.

I have never, and would never, describe myself as “very refreshing” (or telling it like it is), if that’s what you’re insinuating. I said I find speaking to my colleague is refreshing, if anything they are the “refreshing” person, not me.

And you’ve not been on MN long if you think it’s normal for someone to turn up at your house unannounced. It would take me 30 seconds to find hundreds of posts of people who won’t open the door if they don’t expect someone to be knocking on the door. There is no object test of what is weird and what isn’t, so that is just an opinion whenever it’s stated. Seemingly both mine and your friend’s opinion.

You’re coming across as increasingly unpleasant, so I’m inclined to say your friend is the least annoying person in the OP.

Again for the trip, we both do a lot of trusted housesitters, so I suggested nearer the time we could do a mix of accommodation options including trusted housesitters and she said "nope. It'll be a hassle, I want this to be about relaxation".

I think I would rather just plonk myself down in one place with a pool rather than keep packing up to house sit someone else's house every few days, unless I was doing a two centre holiday or a road trip.

OP, I get it. My sister is like this. Her identity is also based on being very clever and capable. The problem with my sister is that she is neither. She has pockets of expertise and ability - but she positions herself as the worlds greatest expert. And in particular with me, she has to feel cleverer than me (ie. me getting accepted to a prestigious university while she went to the local FE college and then the open university. Does where we went matter? Not in the slightest, who would even know if we did not tell them? But she went on and on and on about it. Why her degree was better than mine). Since then she has to feel she has proved herself as better than me, more knowledgeable, etc etc. Its exhausting. Frustrating. And occasionally hilarious because she will say such stupid things to get one up - she once insisted vanilla flavouring was made from bananas when I made a comment about buying a vanilla pod. This does not sound like external processing - its one upmanship. You feel the difference when it is done to you. You can try to discuss it directly with her if she would be open. If not, take my tip - just say, oh, thats interesting, and move on.

There is no way to talk to her about this, because it is a really ingrained trait and she won't recognise she is doing it, let alone be able to stop it.

When she's leaving these long VMs, she's really going through it in her own mind. That's why she sometimes will suddenly change her mind and she thinks it's her own idea - because she's spent so long talking herself through the negatives (which has her considering the positives too, in order to negate them), that she forgets you've said anything.

She's probably quite set in her ways, and finds it hard to deviate from what she knows and believes. It's a safety thing (a comfort zone of the familiar), growing up with a hypercritical mother.

Can you tell I have a similar friend? I don't take it personally, tune out and crack on with some housework or cooking during the VMs/phone calls. When she criticises my choices (I am very impulsive even with large decisions) I say 'you're probably right, but I'm going to do it anyway'. It's fine, my friend is a good -hearted and well-meaning woman, and I'm sure she's tolerating something I do that is equally unconscious, ingrained and annoying.

Neither of you seems compatible. You both sound difficult in your own different ways and I couldn't go on holiday with neither person you both sound absolutely exhausting. This is why I go away solo no one else to dictate to me what they think I should be doing. Going off my own timetable no stress. I can see now whats going to happen if the 2 of you go ahead with this holiday friendship will be over by the end of it.

Way to double down on being an insufferable trait... certainly not going to change any minds like that.

I have read the thread by the way, its very clear from the way you write as to your attitude and you proved it lol.

My advice is - don’t go on holiday with a friend that irritates you. Being together 24/7 for a week or so is a recipe for a major fallout. It happened to me, many years ago - went on holiday with a friend who kept asking me inane questions like what did she think she should wear, did I think it was going to rain, should she take an umbrella just in case, etc etc etc. I snapped after one too many of these questions and was a bit dismissive in my reply which resulted in her refusing to speak to me for the rest of the holiday, even after I apologised. Never saw her again after we got home.

I can’t really work out what your friend has done wrong? She doesn’t want to do the activities you are suggesting on holiday, she wants to lie by/swim in the sea. And she doesn’t want to house sit when it’s supposed to be a relaxing break - also fair enough. She is also entitled to decide she wants a career change and come to the same conclusion you did about what she might do next. None of this sounds annoying unless you don’t like her.

I can see why it's annoying but it also sounds like you can't really describe it very well, so if you can't explain it (without lots of examples) then I don't think you can bring it up. How would the chat go "there's this thing you do, I can't really explain it, it's a bit of a vibe or a tone sort of like that time when...." it just sounds really like you're nit picking and savingup all the things shes ever said that irritate you.
Also, it does take 2 to tango, why are you suggesting stuff to her over and over, if you raised that with me I'd say "I like to come up with my own ideas, and you kept repeatedly telling me what to do with my own life so I felt I had to keep defending myself to get you off my back". I've friend who does what you do, and last holiday she went on and on and on about how I should work in a different country, and instead of telling her to shut up because I didn't want to I kept saying "well the kids are settled and I don't fancy uprooting them, my business is here, my friends... the house etc" and she kept finding reasons why those things would be fine and we should all move to the USA until I snapped "I don't want to bloody move, I've no idea why you think I would want to please stop banging on about it ffs" and she told me I was very defensive, snappy and irritable. I apologised but inside i was seething because she had created the whole bizarre argument. Maybe before raising it, try some introspection as to why you might be creating this behaviour (it might entirely be her, but I suspect not)

It sounds like you’re both as bad as each other to be honest. From your original post you sound quite over bearing and she sounds quite defensive. I have a friend similar to how you sound, and in some ways I can respond like your friend does.
**

• Going to an island for our holiday and I mentioned as well as sea and cultural stuff there would be opportunities to split up and eg could go on some hikes, head to the mountains, etc. She did me a 2 min VM in which she basically reiterated "I mean for me, going here is about the sea, its going to be sea focused for me" over and over again. I was thinking... Yes... I get that, hence why we are going to an island 😅
• It sounds from this like you’re completely dictating the holiday. Assuming because she replied in a voice note, that you voice noted her in the first place telling her all about what exactly you will be doing on holiday, taking over completely. Telling her you can hike, see the mountains, do cultural things as well as swimming. She’s probably been sat rolling her eyes so hard as she listens to you, thinking you’re just taking over the whole thing. So she’s wanted to make a point of replying and telling you what SHE wants to do, jusy to remind you that you’re not completely dictating here.

• Again for the trip, we both do a lot of trusted housesitters, so I suggested nearer the time we could do a mix of accommodation options including trusted housesitters and she said "nope. It'll be a hassle, I want this to be about relaxation".

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with her preference of this? Is it just that you don’t like that she’s not gone along with your idea? You can’t control and dictate everything you know. She just has a preference here and it happens to be different to yours.

• I spent years suggesting a particular career change for her that was really in line with her skills and profile, she would always do these really lengthy VMs explaining why my idea was a bad one. Until 6 months ago when she suddenly had this epiphany that this would be a great option for her.
• I think I would also be rather irritated if one of my friends “spent years” suggesting a particular career change for me. I know you’re only trying to help. But she might not have wanted this. And might have been irritated by you and your suggestions. And it’s not the worst thing in the world that she came to realise this for herself, sometimes that just happens.

You should’ve mentioned this in op. Because now posters are assuming that you are giving unsolicited advices.

Regarding sea thing, OP’s suggestion was to
include some splt time where they can do whatever else they want to do. On which her friend replied, no it’s just sea. I think based on this example, OP’s friends sound dismissive.

But in second example, friend is not wrong to not want to do house-sitting.

I think you are projecting.
in first example, op suggested apart from
sea and cultural time they split up do do other things like hiking etc. Op didn’t ask friend to tag along for hiking, splitting up mean doing their own thing, so it’s not dictating.

i agree with you on 2nd one, friend has done nothing wrong to express her preference.

For 3rd one, op said it was not unsolicited advice. Friend would ask her for career advice.

In my experience, I am projecting too, voice note senders are annoying. This method is chosen by those who prioritise their time over the listener. Text takes more effort to write, while easier to read or go back to a sentence if you need clarity. Voice messages are drafted while doing something else, a walk, making tea, basically without the need of conscious effort. People tend to can go on. It’s better to talk on phone or send a text, where you won’t blabber away. For that reason I would say op is not unreasonable.

I get it op especially after this post.
Some people have the need to have a closing statement. They don’t see in what context you are talking and they would use what you said as a topic of discussion for them to give a monologue on. Such people will never use simple phrases like ‘sounds good. They need to give their 50 cents / speech on everything. Especially in this scenario of bike and you wanting to split up sometimes to do own thing or asking you for a career advice, then shutting it down by voice note. Not following advice is ok but a long voice note to shut down a solicited advice is not so much.