AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

If MN threads are 'the most vitriolic' end of the debate you've seen then yes, it would suggest you are very sheltered.

That's fine. If you ever had experienced some of the things women on here have experienced then you may have a greater understanding of the issues.

I think one issue that really isn’t acknowledged on Mumsnet is the majority of trans young people are not men (although they are the most vocal and are the ones who challenge women’s rights) - they are women. These tend to be autistic and / or mentally vulnerable young women and girls who are labeled “attention-seekers” by mumsnet. There is little or no interest in how we can or should support them (without supporting transition) let alone debate on why so many vulnerable young women find it unacceptable or undesirable to live as their sex. Surely this is a feminist issue too?

I would love some nailed down examples of this hatefulness please. And not just a wafty "read the numerous threads" reply. Because I do, particularly the FSG board and I have never seen any hateful transphobic comments on there.

Lots of comments about the importance of single sex spaces, yes. But as that's not the same thing as hate speech it doesn't count.

Rape survivors like me not wanting to call my rapist a 'she' and not wanting males in female spaces is not 'anti trans' unless you are ADMITTING that being pro trans = anti women.

Which is basically what you are doing.

No, it’s males. And TW are male.

@Wordsmithery I'll bite
Gender ideology is a dangerous regressive ideology that masquerades as a progressive one. It reinforces outdated stereotypes and has misogyny and homophobia.
If any man can be a woman then the word woman means nothing then women lose all ability to name ourselves and advocate for ourselves.
If any man can be a lesbian then same sex attraction ceases to exist and the refusal to have straight sex is transphobia (its already happening see Nancy Kelly's tweet when she was head of stonewall that called homosexual people genital fetishists if they won't have sex with a transperson of the opposite sex)
If womanhood is nothing more than clothes and a feeling then then the real lived experience of all women over all time means nothing
Then theres the issue of men using babies as a fetish prop whilst feeding them drug laced chemically induced chest secretions that have no nutritional value.
Then theres the issue with the erasure of the words woman, women and mother.
The issue of men speaking for women as women.
The loss of awards and titles, the fetting of men as better women than actual women.
All of that is just some of the harm before we talk about the medical issues, data collection or women being forced to call and/or hear their rapists called she and her.
Nobody has a gender identity nor a gendered sole and noone has a gendered brain its all nonsensical pseudoscience with a healthy serving of religious zelotry included.
Gender ideology harms everyone

There is a current thread ( 'title is something like aibu to wish people would obey the rules about toilets') running by a poster who has been told by police that the ruling is a civil matter and they can't do anything about the man in her cafe using the ladies toilets

You’ll be waiting a long time!

We literally discuss that all the time! There’s tons of empathetic posts about vulnerable teenage girls who identify as trans. We even have some posting on FWR.

Where have you been? I have seen this exact issue, particularly the prevalence of young autistic females identifying as trans, discussed regularly on MN.

I try to avoid clicking on trans threads but sometimes it’s not obvious from the title. I largely disagree with the vast majority of posters about trans people but as you said I don’t get involved. I won’t change their mind and they won’t change mine. There’s no point. Plus I don’t want to get into an argument with someone with whom I might share another perfectly pleasant thread.

Hear hear.

There are SO many posts about this on FWR.

.

I'm 38. There were trans women when I was a kid. None of them asked for access to women's toilets and female spaces when I was young.

Now they do and I have very young daughters. So I feel I have to speak up for them, speak out against this insanity.

Rather it turns into a denial of the existence of trans people and an attack on their right to live their life as they wish in public

@Summerartwitch people cannot “deny the existence” of someone by not accepting their definition of themselves. They exist. Of course they do.
People with trans identities don’t vanish in a puff of smoke when we still see them as belonging to their sex.

The right to live our lives as we wish doesn’t exist for anyone. I wish to live pain free and in financial security. That doesn’t mean my disability evaporates and I have more money. We live as best we can within our material reality. Age and sex are two such parameters.

Tom can identify as Lucinda and wear high heels and a frock if that makes him happy. Grayson Perry can wear ludicrously mad doll dresses. That’s totally fine. It’s trans rights people attempting to take stuff that isn’t theirs that causes the problem.

Women’s roles, sport, prizes, safe spaces, are for women, not transwomen. If trans people accept that there is no issue with their gender presentation.

You do realise that this forum has millions of members and, like anything, those with the most to say say it

Just think how many people bang on about in laws, but actually the posts are from a small percentage of the users, as are those about husbands, patterns etc etc

you cannot far all the millions of members with the same brush

what you should be doing is trying to work out what the actual percentage of those who are as you say

What's boring is the constant threads all saying the same thing about trans people and yes there is, in my opinion vitriol. At some point any of our children may transition and although I don't agree with it per se, the amount of disgust and hate on here seems disproportionate.

What do you disagree on, out of interest?

Do you think 'transwomen' should have access to women's spaces for example?

It’s a good question.

Trans people have the same rights as everyone else. If they were able to be sacked for being trans, or weren’t able to access health/education most people would
support them to get those

What TRA are asking for is privileges that the general population don’t get. They are asking to break down established societal boundaries that protect women to benefit themselves. I don’t have the right to use the bathroom I choose to, neither does most of the population.

The more extreme are also asking for societies boundaries for protection of children’s to be disestablished. All children have a right to grow up safely and healthy- puberty blockers and x-sex hormones prevent that.

Outside of these two issues- which affect everyone else and therefore we have a say, I don’t really think about it. I would love to see some regulation, research to establish SOME standards of care, and support Trans people in getting that.

I genuinely don’t give a shiny shit what people wear or how they identify. But why do I have to be a ‘trans ally’? I support pretty much anyone’s right to live how they choose (provided it isn’t harmful to others) but nobody else is asking me to be their ally. Why does everything have to be so black and white? If you’re not for me you’re against me. What a load of crap. I don’t want to be part of some ridiculous gang.

Then those decent transwomen (and there are many decent transwomen that acknowledge they aren't actually women and don't use female spaces) need to SPEAK UP and speak out AGAINST these dangerous activists. But they never do, do they. Their silence is complicity.

MNers are generally hateful of men, step mothers, neighbours and immigrants so I think you are probably safe to include trans people in the list.

😂😂71%, there's your answer op

The disgust is all about men breaching women’s spaces. If they don’t do that, no one would give a shit.